Talk:Unix system
Why the changed redirect because as far as I can see Unix is about the original Unix and Unix system means a modern 'Unix' (i.e.: Unix-like system)--according to the trademark holders only those compliant with POSIX but widely used more generally.
-Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley 05:07, 2004 Dec 22 (UTC)
- It came up on WP:RFD, and the feeling was that Unix system was a more suitable target than Unix-like. At first I wasn't sure I agreed, because Unix seemed at first glance to be just about The Unix system (TM, Copyright, patented, infringe-on-this-and-our-bad-ass-lawyers-will-sue-you, etc, etc). However, reading further into Unix, I saw that it does include stuff about Linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD (in the "Free Unix-like operating systems" section). That made me not so sure, and then I thought that it would be reasonable for someone using say Sun's or HP's or IBM's or Apple's Unix to say "I'm running a Unix system", just as much as someone running Linux might say "I'm running a Unix system". If the target was Unix-like, then it excludes those people, whereas if the target was Unix system, then it includes everybody (at least, that was my intent). (And note that I'm someone who uses Linux every day, whereas I've thankfully avoided using commercial Unixes for the past 5 years, so if anything, I'm biased against commercial unixes, not towards them). -- All the best, Nickj (t) 05:33, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- I'm very tired as I haven't slept for ages, so I hope this makes sense. (Was supposed to be doing work but got distracted by WP.) OK. I don't care particularly what happens to this redirect, but the very fact that we aren't sure which article it should go to indicates a lack of clarity (esp. for the user) about what Unix is about and what Unix-like is about that needs to be sorted out.
However, reading further into Unix, I saw that it does include stuff about Linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD (in the "Free Unix-like operating systems" section).
- But is this section entitled "Free Unix-like operating systems" in keeping with the rest of the article (which starts "UNIX®...developed by a group of AT&T Bell Labs employees including Ken Thompson..." or should it be moved?
it would be reasonable for someone using say Sun's or HP's or IBM's or Apple's Unix to say "I'm running a Unix system", just as much as someone running Linux might say "I'm running a Unix system"
- I'm not sure what your getting at here. Unix-like is all-inclusive where as UNIX is not at all. A Unix system is wider than just UNIX (whether you take the Open Group's definition or a much wider one including things like MSW NT). If you want to make the IMO arbitrary distinction about whether an OS has been allowed to trade under the name "Unix system" then move Unix-like to Unix system and make Unix-like system for those that aren't certified Unix system, but that is a seperate matter. (Actually why do we have an article that is an adjective, Unix-like, in an encyclopedia. That is in itself confusing.)
so if anything, I'm biased against commercial unixes, not towards them
- As an aside, surely, if anything, the status quo (that you are defending) is biased against proprietary (NB: the free Unix-like systems are also commercial) Unixes, because they are being demoted to Unix-like systems (despite having payed http://unix.org/ to be officially called a "Unix system") where as the free OSs (which are arguably less like Unix) get a mention in the article of UNIX proper. Just to rub it in, Unix system . Now personally I think we should ignore the trademarks &c and follow common sense and/or common usage, but all three seem to be opposed to how these articles are currently organised.
- -Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley 06:28, 2004 Dec 22 (UTC)
- P.S. How do you modify your sig so it links to your talk?
- But Unix-like is somewhat biased towards open-source (it even says "The term is most often used as a simple way of referring to the Unix-like open source operating systems"). Ideally, though I'd like to see Unix-like and Unix merged into one thing, and have everything point there. I agree it's a complete mess of a dog's breakfast at the moment.
- Commercial vs. proprietary : tongue-in-cheek: Next you'll be telling me it's not Linux, it's GNU/Linux, right? ;-)
- For the sig, it's under "preferences" → "Your nickname (for signatures)". Let's call this field "<X>". Anything in here will added as your signature, in the form [[User:<YourUsername>|<X>]], where <X> = the contents of the "Your nickname" field, or <X> = <YourUsername> if <X> is blank. So to add the talk link basically you just end the link, and start a new one.