Talk:Sturmabteilung

Date conflict?

The list of leaders states that Emil Maurice was the leader of the Sturmabteilung from 1920 to 1921. But the text says that the group was formed by Hitler in 1921. Is this correct? If so, it should be addressed in the text somehow. Tablesaw 19:33, Feb 27, 2004 (UTC)

The page on [[Ernst_R%F6hm]] states "At the end of the war, Roehm founded the "Freikorps", a right-wing militia, in Munich. In 1920, he became an Nazi-party member and the Freikorps became Hitler's Brownshirts - the Sturmabteilung (SA)." The information on this page appears to be incorrect. Refer [1]. - porge 06:56, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Blackshirts

So what were blackshirts? The SS or an Italian Fascist militia? This article makes both claims. The blackshirts article claims the latter. Taco Deposit | Talk-o to Taco 21:24, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC) Never mind. Taco Deposit | Talk-o to Taco 21:25, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)

Political Violence Under the Swastika: 581 Early Nazis

A misquote from this book was present in this article.

Originally, the article read : Other historians contend that the SA and SS were awash with Marxists and socialist revolutionaries, where "The utopians and those who speak of a Marxist republic have the highest membership in the SA and SS (77.6 and 63 percent respectively)."

This is an incorrect interpretation of the text in 2 ways.

First, the 77.6% and 63 % do not refer to the portion of the SS or SA that are part of the aforementioned groups. Instead, it refers to the opposite, namely the part of the aforementioned groups that joined the SA/SS.

Secondly, neither Utopians nor those who speak of a marxist republic are Marxists or socialist revolutionaries. The section of the book from which this quote is extracted talks about Nazi views on the Weimar Republic. The Utopians are Nazis who believe that the Weimar will be prelude to a 1000 year Reich."Those who speak about a Marxist Republic" are Nazis who believe that the Weimar Republic was controlled by Marxists. Neither group are socialist revolutionaries or marxists.

In conclusion, the assertion that other historians contend that the SA and SS were awash with Marxists and socialist revolutionaries is not supported by the source, and should thus be removed.

For completeness sake, a large excerpt containing the context of the statement :

The perception groups vary a good deal in their dates of joining the NSDAP. Those who call the republic Jewish-run and the Utopians already made up the bulk of the pre-1925 party. The Utopians and those who speak of a Marxist republic also figure prominently in the years of reconstruction of the party, 1925 to mid-192 9. More than half of the critics of multi-partyism and of the traditional anti-capitalists, by contrast, joined only after the 1930 elections. These last two groups also are the more rural groups in the sample and may well have been drawn in only as the movement expanded into the hinterland of the cities to which political competition at first tended to limit itself. This progression is confirmed by the patterns of stormtrooper membership and activity. The Utopians and those who speak of a Marxist republic have the highest membership in SA and SS (77.6 and 63%, respectively). They also have the highest number of people who became stormtroopers directly upon joining the party, and also the largest numbers of "graduates" to the SS. By contrast, those criticizing alleged Jewish control, the "liberalistic-Marxist system," and the traditional anti-capitalists not only joined the SA and SS less often, but frequently only a year or more after joining the party. The anti-Marxists and Utopians, consequently, are the most heavily involved in the street-fighting and in meeting-hall brawls. The critics of the "liberalistic-Marxist system" and of alleged Jewish control are the most involved in proselytizing, while the traditional anti-capitalists and the critics of the multi-party state tend to limit themselves to electioneering

Hitler hated Strasser?

In the article it is written:

A masterstroke was to claim that Gregor Strasser, whom Hitler hated, was part of the planned conspiracy against him.

Could someone provide a source where Hitler says, in his own words, that he hated Gregor Strasser? It seems from an historical perspective that Strasser and Adolf Hitler got along actually rather well, and some would even go so far as to say that Strasser remained loyal to Hitler to the very end, and was killed because Heinrich Himmler and his associates wanted him gone. Oogalee Boogalee (talk) 22:19, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

There were two different periods in Strasser's relations to Hitler. From early on, and even after Hitler ousted his brother Otto Strasser from the party, Strasser was a high official in the party, holding many and varied positions, and Hitler trusted him then, but once Gregor Strasser began to respond to Schleicher's overtures to join a coalition authoritarian government (hopefully bringing the Nazi Party along with him), and then Strasser resigned all his party offices, but remained a member of the party, things changed. Hitler -- who despised anyone who he felt had betrayed him -- turned 180 degrees against Strasser -- which ended up with Strasser being murdered in the Night of the Long Knives. That could not possibly have occurred without Hitler's approval, so I think that "hated" is an appropriate summary description. I doubt that we'll find any direct quote of Hitler saying "I hate Gregor Strasser", any more than we'll ever find a memo from Hitler saying "Kill all the Jews", but that was the situation nonetheless. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:01, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

"...whom Hitler felt had betrayed him..." would be directly supported by Kershaw (2008) p.249, if others agree with the OP that "hated" is inappropriate. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:19, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

BMK, I agree with your language as cited to Kershaw. Kierzek (talk) 17:35, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Membership

In the infobox, I've queried a no. of more than 4 million members during the war Billsmith60 (talk) 22:02, 9 June 2023 (UTC)