Talk:Kumeyaay

Untitled

I moved this from Kumeyaay-Digueno because that's a clumsy title and the Spanish name is misspelled too. (Diegueño) Willmcw 09:26, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The bit about the three bands warrants some discussion; I will not edit the article directly at this point because I don't have access to my source material. The term "band" as used by the Kumeyaay refers to very small geographical areas, often a single reservation, such as the Barona Band of the Kumeyaay, who run the Barona Casino. The major divisions of the Kumeyaay that I am aware of were the Tipai, Ipai, and Paipai -- somewhere I read that the names mean "the folks up there", "the folks here", and "the folks down there" -- but I suspect that these divisions are really historical and do not reflect conditions of the present day. Those who live in the Mexicali Valley (what I believe is meant by the reference to the Sonoran Desert and Yuma) are called Cucapah; I am not familiar with the name "Kamia" although I have seen "Kamiai" used as a variant spelling for Kumeyaay. r/s RMBiddle (not yet a registered user)

May a native Kumeyaay Indian add the pronunciation of this name. Is it Kumeya-ay? --217.11.17.251 (talk) 15:28, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Haawka. It's KumeYAAY. http://www.kumeyaay.com/kumeyaay-history.html?id=77

To my knowledge, the YA and AY are not separate syllables. Kortoso (talk) 21:04, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

History

There's no credible evidence to support the claims either that "Evidence of human settlment in Kumeyaay territory goes back at least 20,000 years" or that "A proto-Tipai-Ipai culture emerged by 5000 BCE." There is a solid basis for saying that evidence of human behavior in this region goes back at least 12,000 years, and there's a culture recognizably ancestral to Tipai/Kumeyaay/Ipai culture by at least 1000 CE. Rhyme3 (talk) 03:27, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

The information was cited by a reliable, secondary source. If you disagree with the information, instead of deleting it, find a more recent, more scholarly source that supports your views. -Uyvsdi (talk) 18:45, 21 May 2010 (UTC)Uyvsdi

The problem is that it's a lot easier to just stick in unsubstantiated things like this than to present a full discussion of what we actually do and don't know. The idea that local settlement goes back "at least 20,000 years" comes from the experimental technique of amino acid racemization dating in the 1970s that was totally discredited (even in the views of its original proponent) in the 1980s. We don't know when the first human settlement appeared. Certainly it was at least 12,000 years ago, and it might have been substantially earlier than that, but there's no solid evidence (yet). For a scholarly discussion of the problem, see Terry L. Jones and Kathryn A. Klar, 2007, California Prehistory: Colonization, Culture, and Complexity.

With regard to a "proto-Tipai-Ipai culture" emerging around 5000 BCE, this is a completely undefined and nebulous concept. I know the literature on the subject rather well, and I've never even seen this suggested, much less defined, within a scholarly context.

If the aim is to build a soundly informative, up-to-date online encyclopedia, then blindly sticking in outdated 30+ year old misinformation and rejecting attempts to correct it doesn't seem to be the best way to go. Rhyme3 (talk) 23:33, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

You've actually furnished a citation, so problem solved. -Uyvsdi (talk) 00:05, 22 May 2010 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Why are these people referred to as "Tipai-Ipai" when the article is about "Kumeyaay"? All the members I know of refer to their group generally as Kumeyaay.

Plus, that picture of "Cabrillo's encounter with the Kumeyaay" has GOT to go. That picture show Mission Indians (ie post-contact), not the original people whom he first met. Kortoso (talk) 21:01, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Absent an illustration of Cabrillo's first meeting, I changed the caption to more accurately date the picture. Kortoso (talk) 18:30, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Regarding Tipai-Ipai, the article is named "Kumeyaay" since that's the common name. Tipai-Ipai calls attention to the two linguistic groups composing the Kumeyaay and is cited in sources. But please do feel free to update and flesh out the article with cited material. Regarding photographs, if you can contribute more photos of living Kumeyaay people, tribal buildings, etc. to Wikimedia Commons, that would be fantastic! -Uyvsdi (talk) 19:39, 7 October 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Huh?

"Evidence of human settlement, in what is today considered Kumeyaay territory, may go back 12,000 years. 7000 BCE marked the emergence of two cultural traditions: the California Coast and Valley tradition and the Desert tradition. The Kumeyaay had land extending from the Pacific Ocean to present Ensenada, Mexico, and then on east to the Colorado River and North to what is known as Oceanside."

Surely what is meant by the source is Oceanside, California and not British Columbia (especially since Highway 78 connects to Oceanside). That makes no sense. Also, is there a way to be sure the source mentioned is credible? 72.199.200.174 (talk) 20:26, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Knowledge Gaps in this Article

At the Wikiconference North America 2016 in San Diego we crowdsourced some thoughts on bias and gaps that may be relevant to improving this article:

WHOSE KNOWLEDGE?
Knowledge Gap What is missing?	Subject Area On which topic?	Expert Guided by who?	Useful References Addressed with which sources?
History of scholarship and narratives: Indians often referenced only through lens of the Missions, and in derogatory ways	Kumeyaay and California Indian History	Michael Connolly Miskwish	Environmental research and source materials help correct some of this bias
WP article on Kumeyaay, Language: Focus on different perspectives between linguists and native speakers. Native speakers don't see it as separate languages. Many linguists actually agree with Kumeyaay on that point.	Kumeyaay and California Indian History	Michael Connolly Miskwish	No reference yet
WP article on Kumeyaay, History: Before Contact - different people or different cultures? Bias comes in when perspective is portrayed as native opinions vs scientists studies. Nothing in the archaeological record says that new people moved in and wiped out others. Same people (maybe w/ intermarriage) w/ roots back to paleoIndians, with culture change over time.	Kumeyaay and California Indian History	Michael Connolly Miskwish	look at scholarship on Montana genetic testing, remains found in Mexico caves, and Kennewick man - findings show direct line of descent to current people
Environmental management, including fire management, harvest techniques, engineering	Kumeyaay and California Indian History	Michael Connolly Miskwish	Tending the Wild
Trade and commerce are often underreferenced. Obsidian mines, etc existed	Kumeyaay and California Indian History	Michael Connolly Miskwish	Archaeological reports
Politics of Paleo-identity: Scientists undermine scientific evidence that local people are descendents of paleo-Indians, to block repatriation. Scientific American took biased view	Kumeyaay and California Indian History	Michael Connolly Miskwish	no reference yet
History books often define California borders retroactively. As a geographic and ecological unit, there is continuity with Baja. Kumeyaay territory a great example of this.	Kumeyaay and California Indian History	Michael Connolly Miskwish	Kumeyaay: A history textbook precontact to 1893
Spread of diseases: estimate at least 1m Indians here before missions came, and 300,000 after Missions started. Estimates of population decline in present CA prior to 1769 range from 600,000 to 1.2m. Spread of indigenous spiritual traditions to try to safeguard Indians from these diseases	Kumeyaay and California Indian History	Michael Connolly Miskwish	CA population studies
San Diego experience: difficulties of religious conversion, lack of environmental understanding, and 1779 destruction of the mission (these are some distinctions from other parts of CA)	Kumeyaay and California Indian History	Michael Connolly Miskwish	Kumeyaay: A history textbook precontact to 1893
Conversions? 60 converts per year likely includes: People who didn't understand what it meant, Stockholm syndrome identification w/ opressors, and children born into the Mission system	Kumeyaay and California Indian History	Michael Connolly Miskwish
Population change 1600-1910 - add Mike's chart to Commons.	Kumeyaay and California Indian History	Michael Connolly Miskwish	Mike's slide deck
Gold rush and gold production, slaughter of many indigenous peoples during this time. Genocide driven by greed for gold (as well as land and water, of course)	Kumeyaay and California Indian History	Michael Connolly Miskwish	Lindsay, Brenden C (2012). "Murder State: California's Native American Genocide, 1846-1873." University of Nebraska Press, Lincoln and London (and other texts referenced in that book)

Kellyjeanne9 (talk) 21:20, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

Kumeyaay and relevant California history references

See also: Wikipedia:Meetup/San Diego/WCNA2016/Indigenous People's Day 2016

• Almstedt, Ruth Farrell (1977). "Diegueno Curing Practices". San Diego Museum Papers Number 10. Museum of Man.
• Anderson, M. Kat (2013). Tending the Wild: Native American Knowledge and the Management of California's Natural Resources. University of California Press. ISBN 9780520280434.
• Bancroft, H. H., California Pastoral 1769-1848, The History Company, 1888

Bancroft, H. H., History of California, Vol. I, 1542-1800

Bancroft, H. H., History of California, Vol. IV, 1840-1845

Barona Inter-Tribal Dictionary, ‘Iipaay Aa Tiipay Aa Uumall, Edited by Cheryl Hinton and Paul Jeffrey, Barona Museum Press in cooperation with Sunbelt Publications, 2008.

Boscana, Friar Geronimo, Chinigchinich, A Historical Account of the Origin, Customs, and Traditions of the Indians at the Missionary Establishment of St. Juan Capistrano, Alta-California, Wiley and Putnam, New York, 1846.

Blackburn, Thomas C. and Kat Anderson, Before the Wilderness, Environmental Management by Native Californians, 1993

Burrus, Ernest J., S.J., Jesuit Relations, Dawson’s Book Shop, 1984

Carrico, Richard L., Strangers in a Stolen Land, American Indians in San Diego, 1850-1880, Sierra Oaks Publishing Co., 1987

• Castillo, Elias (2015). A Cross of Thorns: The Enslavement of California’s Indians by the Spanish Missions. Craven Street Books. ISBN 9781610352420.

Cohen, Bill, Indian Sandpaintings of Southern California, Journal of California and Great Basin Anthropology, 9(1), 1987.

• Connolly Miskwish, Michael (2007). Kumeyaay: A History Textbook. Sycuan Press. ISBN 9780979095108.

Cook, S.F., The Extent and Significance of Disease Among the Indians of Baja California 1697-1773, University of California Press, 1937

Crespi, Juan, A Description of Distant Roads, San Diego State University Press, 2001

Crosby, Harry W., Antigua California, University of New Mexico Press, 1994

Dolan, Sean, Junipero Serra, Chelsea House Publishers, 1991

DuBois, Constance Goddard, The Journal of American Folk-Lore, Vol. XXI. - April-Sept., 1908. - No. LXXXI

Dubois, Constance Goddard, Religious Ceremonies and Myths of the Mission Indians, American Anthropologist, New Series, Vol. 7, No. 4 (Oct.-Dec., 1905), pp 620-629, Blackwell Publishing on behalf of the American Anthropological Association.

Dubois, Constance Goddard Dubois, The Religion of the Luiseño Indians of Southern California, University of California Publications in American Archaeology and Ethnology, Vol. 8, No. 3, pp. 69-186, Pls. 16-19, June 27, 1908.

Federal Indian Law Resource Handbook, National Indian Justice Center, 1998

Gibb, George, Observations on the Indians of the Colorado River, California, handwritten field notes 1856, Smithsonian Digital Volunteers, accessed June 2015, https://transcription.si.edu/project/6601.

Gifford, E.W., The Kamia of Imperial Valley, Smithsonian Institution Bureau of American Ethnology Bulletin 96, Washington: Government Printing Office, 1931.

Harrington, John Peabody, John Peabody Harrington papers: Diegueno, 1913-1933, Reel no. 169-170, available for viewing at University of California, Riverside, Library.

Hatfield, Shelley Bowen, Chasing Shadows, Apaches and Yaquis Along the United States-Mexico Border; University of New Mexico Press, 1876-1911

Hedges, Ken, Archaeoastronomical Sites in the Territory of the Kumeyaay Indians of Southern California and Northern Baja California. In Earth and Sky, edited by Arlene Benson and Tom Hoskinson, pp. 25-39, 135-150. Slo’w Press, Thousand Oaks, California, 1985.

Hedges, Ken, Winter Solstice Observatory Sites in Kumeyaay Territory, San Diego County, California. In Archaeoastronomy in the Americas, edited by Ray A. Williamson, pp. 151-156. Ballena Press Anthropological Papers 22. Ballena Press, Los Altos, California; and The Center for Archaeoastronomy, College Park, Maryland, 1981.

Hedges, Ken, The Sunwatcher of La Rumorosa.  Rock Art Papers, Volume 4, edited by Ken Hedges, pp. 17-32, San Diego Museum Papers 21, 1986.

Hohenthal, William D., Jr., Tipai Ethnographic Notes: A Baja California Indian Community at Mid-Century. Thomas C. Blackburn, ed. Anthropological Papers No. 48. Novato: Ballena Press, 2001.

Hudson, Travis & Lee, Georgia & Hedges, Ken, Solstice Observers and Observatories in Native California, Journal of California and Great Basin Anthropology, 1(1), 1979.

Heizer Robert F., Federal Concern about Conditions of California Indians 1853 to 1913; Eight Documents, Ballena Press Publications in Archaeology, Ethnology and History No. 13, 1979

Heizer, Robert F., Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 8, California, National Museum of Natural History, Smithsonian Institution, 1978

Heizer, Robert F., The Destruction of California Indians, Bison Books, 1993

Hinton, Leanne and Lucille J. Watahomigie, Spirit Mountain, An Anthology of Yuman Story and Song, University of Arizona Press, 1984

Hohenthal, William D., Tipai Ethnographic Notes, Ballena Press & Institute for Regional Studies of the Californias, 2001

Hudson, Travis & Lee, Georgia & Hedges, Ken, Solstice Observers and Observatories in Native California, Journal of California and Great Basin Anthropology, 1(1), 1979.

Jackson, Helen, A Century of Dishonor, Barnes & Noble, Inc., 1993 Jackson, Helen and Abbot Kinney, Report on the Condition and Needs of the Mission Indians of California to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, July, 1883

Jackson, Robert H., Indian Demographic Patterns in Colonial New Spain: The Case of the Baja California Missions. From a report written after 1982. Published status unknown.

Jackson, Robert H. and Edward Castillo, Indians, Franciscans, and Spanish Colonization, University of New Mexico Press, 1995

Kroeber, A. L., Handbook of the Indians of California, xxx

Lee, Melicent, Indians of the Oaks, Acoma Books, 1978

• Lindsay, Brendan C. (2015). Murder State: California's Native American Genocide, 1846-1873. University of Nebraska Press. ISBN 9780803269668. {{cite book}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help)

McCain, Ella, Memories of the Early Settlements, Dulzura Potrero and Campo, McCain, 1955

Natives & Newcomers, Challenges of the Encounter, Cabrillo Historical Association, 1993

Patterson, Alex, Rock Art Symbols of the Greater Southwest, Johnson Printing Company, 1992

Pinto, Tony, Chairman, Cuyapaipe Band of Kumeyaay, personal interviews, July 1996-September 1997

Pourade, Richard F., Anza Conquers the Desert, Union-Tribune Publishing Company, 1971

Pourade, Richard F., Time of the Bells, Union-Tribune Publishing Company, 1961

Pourade, Richard F., The Silver Dons, Union-Tribune Publishing Company, 1963

Powers, Stephen, Tribes of California, University of California Press, 1976

Robinson, W.W., Land in California, University of California Press, 1948

Shipek, Florence Connolly, Delfina Cuero, Ballena Press, 1991

Shipek, Florence Connolly, Pushed Into the Rocks, University of Nebraska Press, 1987

Spier, Leslie, Southern Diegueno Customs, University of California Publications in American Archaeology and Ethnology, vol. 20, pp. 297-358, December, 1923

Stout, Carrol Alice, Dehesa Family Album, Dehesa Family Album Committee, 1978

Waterman, T.T., Religious Practices of the Diegueño Indians, University of California Publications in American Archaeology and Ethnology, Vol. 8, No. 6, pp. 271-358, Pls. 21-28, 1910.

Wilson, Benjamin Davis, The Indians of Southern California in 1852; the B.D. Wilson Report and Selection of Contemporary Comment, J.W. Caughey, ed., San Marino, CA, Huntington Library, 1952.