Talk:Eight-ball

Differences between US and UK and AU

It states that the pockets on a US table are larger than the UK table. I seem to remember that the ball sizes are different too, including the size difference between the cue ball and the others. In the UK the cue is smaller than the other balls - I want to say it's the other way around for the US, would that be right? Can't quite remember. violet/riga (t) 19:00, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It depends a lot on where you're playing. Most pool halls and bars in the U.S. have a cue ball slightly smaller than the rest so as to permit its return in the case of a scratch without returning the other balls to play. Tables that are not pay-per-play, however, seem to have a cue ball approximately the *same* size as the object balls. If it's any bigger, I can't tell, and I can see the size difference on the pay-per-play cues. —chris.lawson (talk) 00:13, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

That's not actually accurate. US pool halls, which don't typically have coin-op tables, use regulation-size balls. US bars with older coin-op tables tend to either have an oversized cue ball, or a normal-size but denser one made of ceramic, never a smaller one. Modern bar boxes use regulation size/weight cue balls with an iron core that is acted on by a magnet to separate the cue ball from the other balls in the return mechanism. Anyway, this stuff is all covered in the Glossary now. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 12:28, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

In the UK, playing in pubs/clubs on the small table (generally 7ft X 4ft) the cue ball is slightly smaller for the same reason. So object balls are 2ins and the white 1-7/8ins (scottish8ball.com) [--anon.]

Sounds plausible to me for UK tables, but no major US table manufacturer uses a mechanism with smaller cue balls. Whatever WEPF says about regulation English-style tables should probably be added to the Eight-ball#English-style rules section Blackball (pool) under "Equipment". — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 12:28, 15 January 2007 (UTC) Updated 19:58, 23 March 2007 (UTC) after article split.

After a foul stroke in the UK, the offending player will miss a turn - known as the "two shots" rule. A common exception to this is "one shot on the black", that is a player who has only the black left to pot does not get this advantage. The "one shot on the black" rule doesn't appear in (EPA) World Rules or BAPTO Rules, anyone care to give a citation? (other than "my mate down the pub says...."). --129.67.127.19 00:32, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

A lot of people at Trinity Hall play it as such...it seems to be the kind of thing that's a common rule for social games but not in any of the official rules. 128.232.250.254 23:15, 23 May 2006 (UTC) darn forgot to sign before. So finding a published source for this may be difficult.

It's been moved to the "Other rule variants" section, since it can't be sourced in any major rules. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 12:28, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

"If a player has two shots, and pots a ball with the first, he now has one two shot left."

i think this should read

"If a player has two shots, and pots a ball with the first, he now has one shot left."

Mainland Europe seem to have cueballs much larger than the object balls. It's nearly always smaller in the British Isles. In UK pubs, the balls are nearly always (but not strictly) reds & yellows on a green cloth. The 8 ball was always numbered but I've seen plain black balls introduced in recent years. Other colour varients are on the increase to go with the seemingly varying cloth clours ie a red cloth may have blues and yellows. Stripeds & solids are still also found occasionally but the dimensions of the British pub table make it hard to play the extra games ie nine ball, meaning there's no advantage of having them. Home tables traditionally always had stripes & solids. It now varies by manufacturer and whether the table pays tribute to British or American tables in regard to size and pocket dimensions. You can get American style table in a few places here in Liverpool. Both tavern and taunament. I have to say they're much easier to pocket balls on then their British cousins. [Gary Parks]

I must also like to add that I've never heard the terms 'bigs' and 'smalls' to define ball caste in the UK. At least not here in the Liverpool area. Stripes are always stripes. Solids are alternatively called spots but as often as not are still called solids. [Gary Parks]

All of those topics are moot, and are now handled at the Glossary. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 12:28, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Despite what the main article says about "in England and Australia", having played 8 ball in Australia all my life I have never ever seen it played with unnumbered coloured balls. It is always numbered balls. The "bigs" and "smalls" is always used in Australia to decide which balls are yours and which are your opponents. However it never occured to me that this was because of the numbers - "bigs" are those with big white circles with the number in it, and "smalls" are those which small white circles with the number in it.

Gtpdspin 14:14, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

That's only true of the balls manufactured by certain companies; some of their competitors put the stripes' numbers on the colored stripe itself, not in the "big circle"; however I can't see any particular reason not to add that possible derivation in the Glossary - the idea seems to be fairly common. However, this is not a discussion for this talk page any longer, but rather for the one at the Glossary article. Anyway, it doesn't say "England and Australia" here any longer. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 12:28, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

"Whether a ball contacts the rail, or the player pots one of his own balls, is irrelevant in deciding a foul. Instead, a legal move is one where the cueball first hits one of the balls in the player's own group, and does not pot the cueball, the black ball or any of the balls in the opponent's group."

This line isn't true? World rules (which are linked in the next paragraph) states:

"On all shots, the player must:-

Cause the Cue Ball's initial contact with a ball to be with a ball "On",

AND THEN

Pot a ball "On" OR Cause the Cue Ball or any Object Ball to contact a cushion." [Cf]

The distinction that needs to be drawn here is between a) Intl. Std. Rules, which are tournament rules based largely on the BCA rules, and familiar in whole or in part to serious, competitive players, on the one hand, and growing in popularity, especially in pool halls and even in pub-based leagues; and on the other hand, b) informal bar/tavern/pub "rules" which vary from country to country, region to region, town to town, even bar to bar. In North America at least (I cannot speak for the .uk or .au) the whole must-hit-a-rail rule is completely unheard of among bar players (other than some league players, whose leagues have adopted this rule from the BCA and other large-scale leagues like APA/CPA, VNEA, etc.) Indeed, the "rules" in bar pool are so inconsistent and so different from "canonical" eight-ball that they should not really be considered the same game at all ("stripes and solids" or "highs and lows" are two alternative names that can and have been applied, as well as "bar pool", "tavern pool", "pub pool" and "bar ball"). At any rate, I think this article should stick to documenting the "real" Intl. Std. Rules, and then in a different section perhaps talk about regional and informal (tavern) variations. That might even be better as its own article, as it could get very, very long in no time at all. I could easily write several pages on the differences between typical bar rules and various leagues in just the last three cities I've lived in! Some of the differences are win-vs.-lose radical. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 23:59, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Agree. Upon reading the article I found it very messy. Maybe splitting the article into UK/US pool would make sense. I personally consider them different games purely based on the table/pocket size. But further to that, you probably get enough variations in each game to make a full article out of it. When I have seen rules on the wall in a pub, pool hall or snooker hall, it is usually a copy of old EPA rules or world rules. Occasionally it is another set, but the article should surely be based on the actual rules, with ideas such as 2 shots carry and 1 shot on the black (neither of which come up in either set of rules posted by the EPA) in a section marked variations. [Cf]

I also believe that there should be seperate entries for US 8-ball and UK 8-ball as the games are totally different! I think its important that each version of the game warrants its own page.

Personally, I don't like UK 8-ball (and I'm English!) I refer to it as "pretend" pool or "baby" pool. Who invented UK 8-ball and why? To me its just something that won't take up too much space in a pub. The most irritating thing I find here in the UK is that many people play UK 8-ball rules when playing on American tables with "Spots and Stripes" (or "bands and solids" if you prefer) set of balls. Most don't know how to play US 8-ball in England (the ball in hand rule goes right over their heads for instance) or even if they do, I've heard the following excuse time and time again: "Well, we are English and we are playing in England, so we're playing English rules". I suppose as long as both parties agree prior to a rack, you can play/make up any rules you want though.(AMD)

Right. Anyway, all of the above topics up to the part about adding English-style standard (sourced) table dimensions are now moot; the article has already addressed them all. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 12:28, 15 January 2007 (UTC) Some of it has been moved to Blackball (pool). — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 19:58, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Rules changes

Check [7] for the new 2006 rules and their changes. They will be in effect until 2008. 70.111.251.203 03:12, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Is there anything specific in them that needs to be addressed here? — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 12:28, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

PS: Perhaps more to the point, this article uses the WPA World Standardized Rules, which are reprinted by BCA. As far as I know, the article is presently using the 2006 or later rules, so I'm not seeing that there's an issue. If you (or whoever) can identify as specific problem, I can fix it easily, as I have the 2008 rules (the newest edition; a 2009 version was not published, as nothing changed) in hardcopy right here. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 19:44, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

However when it comes to UK 'casual' pool, one rule change that has been poorly received is the ruling that when potting the white ball on the break, without potting any other of the balls, whether it be red or yellow (as in the British game) or solids and stripes, as us in the US are more used to, then the game is lost. Usually when this occurs, the competitors will merely accept a re-break, although if it is a competitive game for money, the breaking side will lose the game. 70.111.251.203 18:20, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

I believe you (the same "rule" exists in some variants of US bar pool, too), but I have a feeling that the entire multi-subsection section on colloquial rules may get axed per WP:V, because most of it is not only unsourced, it's essentially unsourceable - no one writes rule books about US or Canadian or UK or Botswanan or whatever pub/bar pool. PS: Dang, I thought I had a pretty stable IP address! Almost 4 years is quite something. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 19:44, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Picture of the rack

by my working, the 13 and the 4 should be changed in the rack. That is, excluding the front ball, the eight ball and the middle back row ball, the balls should go big-small-big-small-big-etc (or spotted-solid-spotted-solid etc). --Midnighttonight 04:24, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

I have never seen a rack set up as you describe. AFAIK, the setup in the article is correct. 129.67.126.51 17:46, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually both forms of racking are correct. It can be the way shown or with the 13 and 4 balls switched, which forms a big check of balls and a little check of balls. The "big-check, little-check" version is the one in Blackball (see the bottom of the article). The one shown in the picture is from the EPA rule set I think, since they allow for both. In BCA rules, all that is required is 8-ball in the middle and the left corner and right corner balls to be one solid, one striped. 71.250.9.119 13:30, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually the only rule is that the 8 should be where it is (in the center) and the back left and back right must be opposite (ie. one big/striped one small/solid) [--anon.]

The article text just needs to be updated with more detail on the racking specifics in the two major rulespheres. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 12:32, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

The 13 and the 4 should be swapped, stop confusing people. Check: [[8]] and [[9]] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.240.253.209 (talk) 05:16, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

The first of those links clearly says, "the other balls are placed in the triangle without purposeful or intentional pattern". Phil Bridger (talk) 11:11, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

The quote from the first link "the other balls are placed in the triangle without purposeful or intentional pattern" doesn't mean that you can place the balls in any pattern or order you want. It means that the official rack of the balls was designed and set up "without a purposeful or intentional pattern" the people that made the rules tried to make the rack go, small, big, small, big but you can't make all the balls like that so they made it how they did. The official rack ISN'T small, big, small, big. It is like you see in the pictures, I really don't get it though, whats the confusion?? just look at the pictures and I even gave you multiple official sources that confirm it. IF there is an alternative way of racking the balls, so what? why would you want to push so hard for the alternative way anyway, just put the official way and make a reference to the other one if you really want. It's been some time since i first gave you the sources and it still hasn't been changed, please change it now, and make this issue resolved. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.240.253.209 (talk) 11:02, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

I suggest that, aside from specifying that the 8-ball and back corner balls be one of each suit, the other balls are placed entirely at RANDOM. Some of you may be interested in knowing at the 2009 U.S. Bar Table Championships in Reno, "pattern racking" was strictly prohibited. Specifically, players could not adjust the balls at all after they were in the rack. Alternating "stripe with solid" as so many players are prone to do when fidgeting with the ball position, was NOT allowed. During the players' meeting before the 8-ball event, the director even voiced an example, something like the following. "If, when you throw the rack up there and all the stripes are together and all the solids are together, do NOT adjust the ball positions; it is random, except for the 8-ball and the back corner balls." Also, in the American Poolplayers Association (APA) rules, the back corner balls do not need to be of different suits, these are also random.Nightchalker (talk) 17:57, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

This article is not at present covering league rules, only WPA World Standardized Rules. At some point I plan a table outlining differences between major league rulesets, but this will be a long and tedious job. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 19:44, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Pocketing the 8 and another ball

Resolved

 – Question answered, vandalism repaired.

Someone has vandalised this page (not me) I am reaserching pool. What happens if a player still has to pocket a number ball and a 8 ball, and thy do them both in one shot? this happened to me this afternoon, i reckon the guy who did it should lose. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.238.70.236 (talk) 10 May 2006

As the article makes clear, that is a loss of game; the 8 cannot be pocketed on the same shot as one's last object ball. Pocketing the 8 legally and also dropping an opponent's ball in the process, before or after the 8, is not an issue (except in information Canadian rules). — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 07:34, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Blackball

{{Resolved=Material in question is in own article now, Blackball (pool).}} Is there any more information on Blackball? I know it is relatively new, but how many people are adopting it and such? 71.250.9.119 13:31, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

It is now covered in a little more detail, where it does not disagree with English-style WEPF rules it is based on. Any further development should probably see the entire "English-style rules" section become a new Blackball article; it's very clear that American- and English-style (a.k.a. blackball) "eight-ball" rules are really two radically different games, albeit the latter derived mostly from the former, with snooker and English billiards influences.

Blackball (pool) now exists. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 19:53, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Terminology Section

Resolved

Is the Terminology section necessary? There is a whole article with just Pool/Billiard terms already. Either add to the list and mark a reference or link from that article to this one. 71.250.9.119 13:32, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I added the regional term "English" as in "Use your English on that shot!"

(Pygmypony 18:52, 17 April 2006 (UTC))

The Terminology article should be merged into this article.

(Pygmypony 18:27, 24 April 2006 (UTC))

Other way around by long consensus. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 12:28, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Rule list

Resolved

I've read this article a few times but I can't see an easy to follow rule list with penalties, I know there are lots of different sets of rules and penalties but it would be nice to see one version (a pub rule set at least...) eg. If the other players ball is sunk when taking your shot, an extra shot is given to the other player. (Bouncingmolar 07:27, 20 July 2006 (UTC))

Fixed. Again, as to English-style/blackball rules, that really eventually needs to be its own (and better developed) Blackball article. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 12:28, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Please review: Consensus and consistency needed on spelling to prevent ambiguity & confusion

Resolved

Especially for nine-ball but also for eight-ball, one-pocket, and even snooker, etc., I firmly think we need to come to, and as editors enforce in article texts, a consensus on spelling conventions and implement it consistently throughout all of the cue sports Wikepedia articles. I advocate (and herein attempt to justify) a system of standardized spellings, based on 1) general grammar rules; 2) basic logic; and 3) disambiguation.

This is a draft submission to the active editor community of billiards-related articles on Wikipedia. It is intended to ultimately end up being something like "[[Wikipedia:[something:]Billiards/Spelling guidelines]]", or part of an official Wikipedia cue sports article-shepherding Project, likely it's first documentation output.

Anyway, please help me think this through. The point is not for me to become world famous™ for having finally codified billiards terms and united the entire English-speaking world in using them (hurrah). I simply want the articles here on pool and related games to be very consistent in application of some new consensus Wikipedia editing standards about spelling/phrasing of easily confusable billards terms that may be ambiguous to many readers in the absence of that standard.

Compare:

1. "While 9-ball is a 9-ball game, the 9-ball is the real target; pocket it in a 9-ball run if you have to, but earlier is better." (Huh?)
2. "While nine-ball is a nine ball game, the 9 ball is the real target; pocket it in a nine ball run if you have to, but earlier is better." (Oh, right!)

That's the super-simple "use case" I make for this proposed nomenclature. If you think that the differentiation didn't cut it please TELL ME, and say how you would improve it.

So, here's the article draft so far (please do not edit it directly! Post on its Discussion page instead; thanks.): User:SMcCandlish/Pool_terms

(PS: This intro text is repeated at the top of it.) — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 05:21, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

This is now "live", at WP:CUESPELL. Marking this topic resolved here, since WP:CUESPELL has its own talk page.

WikiProject Cue sports

Resolved

Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Cue sports [It is now live at Wikipedia:WikiProject Cue sports! 23:04, 22 December 2006 (UTC)]. Any comments, or better yet interested editors to participate? — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 01:11, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

This is now "live", at WP:CUE. Marking this topic resolved here, since WP:CUE has its own talk page.

Pool redirect

Resolved

Pool (game) redirects here, but I always thought that eight-ball was just one version of pool. Shouldn't that redirect lead to Pocket billiards instead?--Azer Red Si? 22:14, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Fixed. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 23:01, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Massive edit

Resolved

 – Material in question is now at Blackball (pool).

I've done a major rewrite, to take care of a lot of non-encyclopedically written additions, and to vastly clarify the difference between American-style eight-ball, and UK-style blackball (which should probably really be forked into its own article). Loads of clarification, and large-scale wikillinking of Glossary terms, new sources, removal of redundancies, addition of more colloquial rules variations in the section for that, you name it. It would be helpful if someone more familiar with Commonwealth English were to review the stuff about blackball/UK eight-ball and the cited rules sources I've tried to summarize, and the associated major entries in the Glossary (especially at "two shots" and related nearby entries.) — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 12:04, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Much of this material has moved to Blackball (pool). — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 19:58, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

This document still needs a MASSIVE edit to be written in plain English. Many of the sentences are written backwards and are ambiguous. I have assumed the principal author is not English because of the standard of the grammar. If I knew the rules, I'd re-write the article myself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.239.141.120 (talk) 23:06, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Pantsing/down trou

Resolved

 – Source confirms the concern; article edited to conform.

I think the New Zealand entry is wrong, and that the conditions for down trou are the same in NZ as they are in Australia. I don't think anyone would be called upon to down-trou if they'd run every ball but the 8 before their opponent made a shot, then the opponent ran all his/her balls and the 8. Regardless, we need sources for both of these. I believe the film Stickmen can be used as one of them. I'll have to watch it again and observe the specifics of the pantsing incident. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 23:35, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah you're right - to down trou someone, playing NZ informal rules, you have to sink all your balls, plus the 8, while your opponent still has all their balls on the table.

Indeed. Stickmen confirms this and is probably a reliable source on this matter (while it is not a documentary, it was written and produced by New Zealanders, for the pool-savvy segment of the NZ audience; it wasn't even available at all internationally until about a year ago). I will update the article. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 18:42, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Number in name

I think some reference should be made to the fact that unlike Three-ball and Nine-ball, (which are actually played with 3 and 9 balls respectively), Eight-ball refers to the game-play significance of the 8-ball, not the number of balls in play. (It's often confusing to new players that "Eight-ball" actually uses more balls than "Nine-ball", despite the names.) Lurlock 17:58, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

It's even a little more complicated than that. Nine-ball and seven-ball are named for both the number of balls and the money ball, while eight-ball is named only for the money ball, meanwhile three-ball and fifteen-ball are named only for the number of balls. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 00:12, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

PS: I agree that the article should clarify this. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 08:42, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Australian in-off rule

Resolved

 – No objections to deletion.

Aside from the fact that the assertion isn't sourced, it's been asserted that the Australian common pub rules have it that potting the cue ball off the 8 ball ever is a loss of game. Clarification needed:

1. Is there any source for this at all? Even a local league rules document or something?
2. Does this truly mean "ever" or only when the 8 ball is hit first (or even only when I'm "on" the 8 ball)? I.e., if I'm aiming for the 9, hit the 9 (first), then carom the cue ball off the 9 and then off the 8, but alas, accidentally pot the cue ball into the side pocket (regardless what happens to the 9 ball so long as I did not early-pocket the 8 ball), is that a .au loss-of-game?

— SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 12:40, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Never heard of that one before. As far as i know, pocketing the 8 earlier than required, or pocketing the 8 on a foul is a loss of game only.Baggers89 (talk) 07:46, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Will remove it then. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 16:14, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Removed Brazil material

Resolved

 – No objections to deletion of off-topic material.

I removed the following unsourced addition about Brazil, as it appears to be confused:

In Brazil,...in some regions, the two groups of target balls are decided by their number being odd or even, not the ball being stripped or solid (that is, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12 and 14 vs. 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11 and 13; the 15-ball takes the place of the 8-ball).

That would make what is being discussed there a form of fifteen-ball not eight-ball, by definition. I don't think there is a fifteen-ball article yet, though I intend to add one fairly soon (and fully sourced). — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 17:31, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I guess "fairly soon" turned into "whenever"... Too much to do! — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 16:12, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Hola, amigos (variations in Spain)

Unresolved

 – Content needs to be translated and imported.

I'm creating the spanish article about 8-ball. As I think my english is not good enough to do it, I inform you that I have included the variations in my country, Spain. If anyone undestands spanish, you're invited to complete even more this fantastic article... Cheers :) --88.14.138.126 20:45, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

My Spanish is not very good, but I will see what I can do when I have the time. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 16:10, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

English-style rules

Unresolved

 – Someone, maybe multiple someones, are confused here.

I'm sorry I know this has already been discussed but this is section is wrong!

There are three sets of rules played in the UK: World Eight Ball Pool Federation Rules sanctioned by the EPA [10] BAPTO rules which are bigger in Scotland and Blackball which is fairly new and not heavily played. The EPA does not sanction Blackball rules, Blackball as a game is not widely known, 8 ball pool is! I will slightly alter this in a couple of days if no one objects! --Watford147 (talk) 16:46, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I think you may be at the wrong article. All of this stuff is covered at Blackball (pool), which also covers "8-ball pool". That articles does need work, as it does not cover BAPTO at all. If there is something wrong in the UK section in this article, by all means fix it, but this is the eight-ball not 8-ball pool article; they are different but related games. If BAPTO rules are actually for eight-ball, played with what you call kelly pool balls (i.e. numbered solids and stripes), then any BAPTO material probably does belong here. From everything I can figure out so far comparing their rulesets, WEPF/EPA 8-ball pool and WPA blackball have such minor rules variations that there is no reason not to simply distinguish between them at the blackball article. If WEPF also promulgates stripes-and-solids eight-ball rules, then, yeah, we do have an issue here. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 16:09, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Weird rule

Resolved

 – "Weird rule" removed.

I don't know the rules, but this one appears to stand out in the Winning section due to the typo's, lack of capitalization and wording: "if you make the oppisites player ball in and then your 8 ball you loose." It should either be fixed, or removed if it doesn't belong here. --DanielPharos (talk) 15:16, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I have removed it. The rule as stated was technically correct (well what I could make out given its poor wording) but randomly stated and placed.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 00:48, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Technically correct in what? I have only encountered this in bar pool, and only in a few places. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 20:27, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Technically correct in that if you contact the opponent's ball first when you are shooting at the 8 ball, that's a foul. When you foul when the 8 ball is the ball on, you lose if the 8 ball is pocketed (and regular ball in hand results if it is not pocketed just like any foul). The rule was so poorly stated, I'm not sure if the user meant the opponent's ball was hit first, but it could mean this, which would have made it correct. Anyway, once you're trying to figure out what the hell someone is talking about, because they write so unclearly that multiple interpretations are possible, the game for keeping that edit is already lost.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 06:19, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Right! — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 23:49, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Nonsense

Resolved

 – Nonsense deleted.

I don't know much about pool, that's why I looked up this article in the first place, but what's all that stuff in the UK section about 'doing a Blair', I assume it's a load of bollocks, but since I don't know I'll leave it for someone who does to remove it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.33.114.129 (talk) 12:49, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

No such material remains in the article. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 23:51, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Most common in the world?

Resolved

 – Lead cleaned up.

"Played on a pool table with six pockets, eight-ball is the most common pool game in the world and is so universally known that beginners, often aware of no other pool games, ubiquitously believe the word "pool" itself refers to eight-ball." References for this? This also needs to be changed as "the world" implies that all countries would conform to the above - not true. Mention "pool" anywhere in England and people will assume you mean "blackball" (a name I've never heard it called - literally everyone in england calls it pool). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Caseykcole (talk • contribs) 03:10, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

I've cleaned up the lead some to address these issues. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 23:59, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

League rules section needed

An entire section needs to be added on VNEA, APA, BCAPL, ACA, ACS, TAP, IPT and other league rules variations, where the league in question is notable enough for an article (all just mentioned are, but several do not have articles or even sections in other articles yet). Doing this will forestall problems like the recent insertion of extraneous APA rules details into the WPA World Standardized material. I think it fairly likely that I'll be the one to start this section (just because I tend to do stuff like that, and WP:CUE doens't have a lot of active editors, but if someone else wants to do it, then please do so; I have many fish to fry. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 03:23, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Sao Paolo

I have removed the following from the Brazil section of the article, since it does not make any sense in English:

Also in São Paulo region is common to play with one player pocketing pairs and the other pocketing unpairs with the 1-ball or 15-ball as the last one.

"Unpair" is not a word, and "pair" is ambiguous. If someone knows what this actually is supposed to mean, please enlighten us. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 12:10, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Indented line I guess he meant even-numbered and odd-numbered balls. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.87.19.214 (talk) 23:54, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Eight-ball rules sub-article

I think it would be a useful split at some point to move the rules to a separate Eight-ball rules article (c.f. Snooker rules, etc.) This article is long-ish. After laying out the world standardized rules, I think it would be particularly instructive to set up a table with columns that differentiated where other rulesets diverge from it. Have WPA rules (used by BCA, BCAPL, USAPL, ACS and many other leagues) first, followed by APA and VNEA, and maybe TAP. Blackball is probably too divergent to include, as it would conflict with almost every rule. :-) — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 08:37, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Why are the balls numbered?

It would be nice to be able to find some information on the origin of this design of the balls. The only form of pool I've heard of in which the numbers have significance is nine-ball, but if it were to mimic that game, I somehow doubt 9-ball would be played with the first 9 balls of an 8-ball set.

I can imagine there being a form of pool in which each player's aim is to pot his/her balls in order: spots from 1 up to 7, stripes from 15 down to 9, and then in each case the 8 to complete the sequence. For all I know, this variant may have been thought up independently by many, but has any such game ever been officially recognised by anybody? -- Smjg (talk) 21:00, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Check the game called Rotation (pool). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:41, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

There are many games which use the numbering of the balls. As Baseball Bugs says above, rotation, then there's Kelly Pool, Chicago, Cribbage, ten ball, seven ball, six ball, Mister and Mrs., Baseball pocket billiards... and well the list goes on and on. Numbered balls first started being used for the game of hazards in 1773 which was the forerunner to pool. In it, all the balls were white but they were numbered. If a player made a winning-hazard (pocketing a ball—as opposed to a losing hazard: pocketing the cue ball intentionally on a carom), the player scored the numerical sum of the ball's number.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 04:17, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

And I left out perhaps the most obvious one, Straight pool, in which without the numbers you would be forced to say things like, "That one with the smudge that looks like Madonna, in the side pocket." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:32, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Straight pool (my favorite of all pocket games) could be played without numbering: "yellow stripe corner" (but it would be painful), while many other games such as those I listed require numbers as part of the score or the rotation.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 05:58, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Yeh, colors would be sufficient. Or just numbers, for that matter. Anyway, here's hoping we enlightened the OP a little bit. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:02, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

I really think 'Eight-ball' Should re-direct to the cocaine measurement

I mean really, who is really looking up 8ball for the '8ball'? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.152.141.66 (talk) 11:48, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

What are the numbers for?

This article does not state what the numbers are for. Presumably the balls have to be potted in order, or this game would be the same as what we call pool in England. If that is correct, are balls 9 to 15 potted in ascending or descending order? The article needs to be amended to include this information. Even if there are regional variation, something should be said about the prevalent rule. This omission seems to be a classic example of something seeming so obvious to people who know the subject that they have forgotten to mention it, but it is not self-evident what the numbers are for. Postlebury (talk) 21:03, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

No, eight-ball is not a rotation game (whereas, for example, nine-ball is); the balls are not potted in any order. Once choice of group is assigned, one player is solids (balls 1-7) and the other is stripes (balls 9-15) and each player may make any of his group in any order. Once the player has potted all of his group, he may then shoot at the 8-ball. I actually detailed the origin of ball numbering higher on this page. Almost all pool games (there are a few hundred) use a standard set of numbered and colored balls. Some use the numbering of balls directly as a facet of the game rules and some do not. As noted, rotation games require the balls to be made in the order of the numbering. Others have the players scoring the number of points the balls are numbered, and many pool games do not use the numbers directly at all, except to the extent that players describe the balls they are going to hit (in call-pocket games) usually by the number assigned rather than the colour. By the way, I'm really not sure what you mean when you say "or this game would be the same as what we call pool in England." In England, "pool" (which is a word of American origin) is used in the say way it is in the States, or at least that appears to be the case. It refers not to a single game but to many games played on pocket billiards tables. In England they play nine ball pool, eight ball pool, and other pool games. See, for example, this UK site which provides rules for many pool games and uses the word as Americans do. Note, though, that here in the States as well, in amateur venues, many people who are only passingly familiar with the sport do sometimes use the word "pool" to mean just the game of eight-ball, since it is the only game they know, and is the predominant game played in pubs. The same may be true in England.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 02:50, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Gasukidesu, 28 May 2010

{{editsemiprotected}}

Gasukidesu (talk) 13:49, 28 May 2010 (UTC)If you shoot for the 8 ball without choosing a pocket, it will result in loss of the game.

 Not done Hi there, I've declined this request as no request has been made to edit the article. Please make sure that in any future requests that you make you use the format "Please change x to y", otherwise it can be difficult for us to find out exactly what edit you would like to be made to the page. Thanks, Jeffrey Mall (talk • contribs) - 14:09, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

There was another reason not to do this: that is some local variant rule (a "bar rule") that is utterly incorrect in all authoritative rule sets.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 13:09, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Why "eight-ball"?

how can this be eight ball if there is more than 15 balls on the table —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.13.169.135 (talk) 16:18, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

The balls are numbered, physically having affixed the numerals 1 through 15. In this game, the ball numbered 8 has special significance, as you'll note if your read the article, so it's named after that ball.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 13:10, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Split shots

Resolved

 – Fixed.

{{editsemiprotected}} This sentence:

"This includes "split" shots, where the cue ball strikes one of the shooter's and one of the opponent's object ball simultaneously."

should be changed to:

"This does NOT includes "split" shots, where the cue ball strikes one of the shooter's and one of the opponent's object ball simultaneously."

according to World Standardized Rules. See reference 5 (http://www.wpa-pool.com/download/Official_%20WPA_Rules.pdf), point 1.16.4 SPLIT HITS: "If the cue ball strikes a legal object ball and a non-legal object ball at approximately the same instant, and it cannot be determined which ball was hit first, the judgement will go in favor of the shooter."

Tallaght.ie (talk) 11:48, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Done Dabomb87 (talk) 14:29, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Spots and stripes

Resolved

 – Done, after sourcing.

{{edit semi-protected}}

On the page eight-ball

I would like to request the alias Spots and Stripes be added, changing

Eight-ball (often spelled 8-ball or eightball, and sometimes called stripes and solids or, more rarely, bigs and littles or highs and lows),

to

Eight-ball (often spelled 8-ball or eightball, and sometimes called stripes and solids or, more rarely, spots and stripes, bigs and littles or highs and lows),

The term Spots and Stripes is quite common in the UK and a Google search for Pool, Spots and Stripes (ignoring the current promotion by Cadbury's) brings up a wealth of sites related to eight-ball pool.

Thank you. Escribblings (talk) 01:55, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Question: Do you have a source or example of that game being called spots and stripes? None of the links on the google search show the game being called spots and stripes alone. Thanks, Stickee (talk) 02:43, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template.

Note:I have found several places selling ball sets marked spots and stripes. I have also found the following pages calling the game spots and stripes.

The online guide to traditional games - eight-ball pool refers to the game as Spots and Stripes

... The balls are split into two types, spots and stripes. The black eight-ball, although nominally of the spot type is counted as a separate entity. ...

About.com - Pool/Billiards Refers to the balls as Spots and Stripes

... 1 thru 7 for the "low balls" or "spots" and 15 thru 9 in descending order for the "stripes" or "high balls" ...

| Arseweb - Pool Rules Refers to US pool balls as Spots and Stripes and UK pool balls as Solids. This makes the most sense as a definition as UK pool balls are 100% solid, whereas the US solids are not 100% solid due to the number on them.

... Since American pool game such as 9-ball and straight pool, requiring spots (solids) and stripes are really only ever played on American-style tables in dedicated clubs, these kinds of balls have been almost completely phased out from UK 8-ball tables. When playing on a UK table, you will almost always find that there are 7 solid red balls and 7 yellows, plus the black which retains its white spot and number and is still called the 8-ball. ...

South Tyneside Pool League - Playing Rules (Google cache of a Word document) Uses Spots almost exclusively in place of Solids.

... Place the 15 balls at irregular alternate positions, with either a spot or stripe as the head ball, ...

... If during the break-off both stripe and spot balls are potted, ...

... If during game play the cue ball hits a spot and a stripe simultaneously ...

... When all of a players spots or stripes have been potted ...

... If either stripe or spot balls leave the table ...

I hope this is enough.

Title of WPA rules

An anon recently changed the heading "World Standardized Rules" to "Standardized Rules of Play", with the edit summary 'The WPA website no longer refers to the rules as the World Standardized Rules. They were previously referred to in that manner, with news entry in 2005 mentioning some adopted change to them, but any current reference to them says "Rules of Play".)'

This needs further investigation. For one thing, the WPA website isn't their authoritative documentation, which are printed copies of rules they provide to referees and tournament organizers. The website is just a public "face" they put on this stuff. For another, we have multiple reliable sources for the title "World Standardized Rules", including every single BCA rulebook published for more than a decade. I'm skeptical that this change based on the HTML <title>...</title> of a webpage is valid. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ   Contrib. 00:01, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

As far as I am aware, the World Standardized Rules were effective through through 2008, when they were amended and renamed the World Rules, the present regime (the Rules of Play being the subheading). A pdf is available at http://www.wpa-pool.com/pdf/web/WPA_Rules.pdf I am not a fan of the reorganization, although the rules have not changed a great deal in the main. I personally would use the BCAPL for all rule calls if I was allowed—so much more nuanced.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 01:49, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Hmph. The current PDF actually says "Pool Billiards – The Rules of Play". So the whole "World" part seems to have been lost, unless the printed version still has it. PS: I agree on the BCAPL rules; I play ACS too, but they've adopted the BCAPL rules. VNEA is pretty close, APA being the real "out there" variant. I haven't checked up on TAP rules in 10 years, though. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ   Contrib. 05:40, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

You want clarity? Maybe try emailing Bob Jewett: jewett [at] sfbilliards [dot] com. I believe he was one of the main drafters of the rules changes so I wold think he could shed light on this issue.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 11:52, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

First Sentence

The first sentence of the article, similar to other articles, is confusing to me. It would be better to somehow state more simply "8-ball is a popular version of pocket billiards (pool)." Maybe cut down on the names of it in the first sentence. and have them mentioned at the end of the paragraph. 108.86.184.50 (talk) 02:43, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

That sentence would introduce an error or at least a point of confusion because it implies pocket billiards is a game, and 8-ball is a variant game but pocket billiards is a classifier for a broad class of games played on tables with pockets where pocketing balls is a goal of play (as opposed to carom billiards--where caroms are the goal of play, often played on tables with no pockets at all). It is the equivalent to "ball game"; "kick ball is a ball game"; "8-ball is a pocket billiards game". You would no more say 8-ball is a version of pocket billiards than you would say kick ball is version of ball games. I donkt really see how stating alternate names is confusing. I am by no means saying this crappy article isn't crap, which it most definitely is, nor that the lead doesn't need rewriting.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 15:53, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Don't "fix" season names.

A competitive season that runs from autumn of 2008 through spring of 2009 is the is "2008/2009" season. A "2008–2009" season would be a two-year season. Neither style should use "09", as it is liable to be interpreted as a month.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  04:12, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

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Variations not documented yet

I removed from the lead a partial sentence that consisted of an inline list of alleged variations, most of which are not covered in the article body, and which does not correspond at all to the variations that are in the article. This list consisted of the following:

• Alabama eight-ball
• Missouri
• misery (probably same as Missouri)
• last-pocket
• 1-and-15-in-the-sides
• rotation eight-ball (a.k.a. eight-ball rotation)
• crazy eight
• soft eight
• "and others".

Of these, eight-ball rotation is covered in the article with it's own section, while the 1-and-15-in-the-sides and last-pocket rules are mentioned in passing somewhere as regional things. The others are not mentioned at all. If we want to include these, I would suggest checking Shamos 1999 and other reliable sources for documentation on such variations, and writing them up as sections, or (if they are regional) integrating them into existing regional sections.
 — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  09:39, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

I have removed the following as unsourced WP:NFT junk:

Backwards eight-ball

Backwards eight-ball, also called reverse eight-ball, is a variant in which, instead of shooting the cue ball at an object ball to force the object ball into a pocket, the player strikes the object ball with their cue so it caroms off the cue ball and into a pocket, in a fashion similar to Russian pyramid.

 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  12:33, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

I have restored it, with a ref call to Shamos, who lists it as "backwards pool" and lists a few alternate names (some of which have their own entries, though the wording is identical, which means that the editors of the book were a bit sloppy, but I digress). oknazevad (talk) 15:08, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Fair enough! With no citations it looked exactly like the WP:NFT "pool game me and my buddies made up last week" stuff we had to keep deleting all the time a few years ago.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 

Chinese eight-ball pool

Resolved

 – This is now covered.

Another variant that is not covered, but apparently attracting professional competition, is Chinese eight-ball pool, played on 9 × 4.5 ft tables with standard WPA ("American") balls and "similar" rules, but using snooker pockets and cushions. [The cushion assertion cannot actually be correct, or the balls would fly off the table. What it probably refers to is a cushion profile that looks like ___⌉ (as in snooker) instead of ___< (as in pool and carom billiards), in a cross-sectional view (where ___ is the table bed near the cushion). The game apparently also uses heated tables, like three-cushion billiards.

Below, I'll go over sources cited so far (two from material inserted into List of world eight-ball champions, and two from an improper hatnote at Chinese eight-ball (which is about something different, an American folk/pastime variant, played by shooting object balls at the cueball to carom [BrEng: cannon] them into pockets, as in Russian billiards). There is some discussion about "Chinese eight-ball pool" also at Talk:List of world eight-ball champions, but it should be centralized here.

If the rules of this game closely follow WPA/BCA rules (which seems to be the case from sources so far), it should be listed, with more sources, in a section at this article. If it more closely follows the rules of Blackball (pool) (a.k.a. "English eight-ball pool"), it should instead be covered there. Regardless, there should be a "See also" entry for it in the other article, such that both existing articles make reference to it one way or another. Then the hatnote at Chinese eight-ball can be fixed to point to the proper location. Finally, the List of world eight-ball champions can be updated to include this game's top player, but this surely should not happen until there's a sourced section on the game at either Eight-ball or at Blackball (pool), as appropriate. If the game itself cannot be demonstrated to be WP:Notable enough for its own article, nor verifiable enough in its details for a section, then the champions article should not include information about it, since that would just be non-encyclopedic trivia-cruft.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  09:39, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

Sources so far, with an eye to WP:Notability (i.e., can we have an entire article about this game, not just a section?):

• [11] is from a reliable publication (AZBilliards is one of the leading pool-specific online sports journalism sources, and is professionally edited). This article could theoretically have been used to help establish notability (which requires multiple instances of in-depth coverage in independent, reliable, secondary sources). However, it tells us virtually nothing about the game itself, only about a specific tournament and the players at it.
• [12] is some guy's blog and it is clearly not professionally edited. This is a weak primary source, and while we can maybe use it for some non-controversial details, at least temporarily until better sources are found, it cannot be used to establish notability. Of major concern here is that the article makes it clear that this is a Chinese national game, and that the opening of the tournament is gimmick by the Chinese state, who basically cheated by stacking the playing field with Chinese citizens who got byes, directly into the money round. While this is interesting, it's a strong blow against notability.
• [13] is from a reliable publication (AZBilliards is one of the leading pool-specific online sports journalism sources, and is professionally edited). However, the article is an op-ed by a player, so it's also a primary source. It's not a useless article, however, providing both details about the game in general, and about the specific tournament in question.
• Wharton, Rich. [14] 'What Is Chinese 8 Ball', Billiards Boutique blog article Retrieved on 26 January 2015. Another personal blog, not a reliable source.
• Brett, Lee; Kidd, Jay and others. [15] 'Chinese 8 Ball Rules', AZ Billiards Forum discussion Retrieved on 26 January 2015. Forum posts, which is more user-generated content, thus not a reliable source.
• There are YouTube videos showing people playing it. YouTube is a mishmash of user-generated content and shameless copyright violations, and we generally cannot use it as a source. Sometimes specific items on it can be used, but these will have to be examined on a case by case basis. At any rate, whether the game exists at all is not really in question. It's a matter of notability, and it's unlikely that Youtube clips will help establish it.

Thus far, I would say we have sufficient sourcing to write a section called "Chinese eight-ball pool" under Eight-ball#Derivative games and variants, based on the AZBilliards regular article, for anything that can be gleaned from it; cautiously based on the three primary sources (with more weight given to the AZBilliards op-ed, because the publisher is reputable), but only for claims that are unlikely to be controversial; and ignoring random user-generated stuff from forums and YouTube. YT can be looked at for material that is trivial content and is not a copy-vio; something that might be useful would be attendee-shot footage from one of the championships. We can't use people playing the game with their buddies, nor material ripped from commercial broadcasts, nor instructional material.
Ping: Sandman1142.
 — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  10:47, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

Honestly (to answer this years later), I think the other article should be completely overhauled to be about the modern Chinese 8-ball, and not the archaic (and racistly named) barely notable game. It does a disservice to our readers to not address the most basic of questions related to the most common use of the term. No one cares about a forgettable and forgotten fanciful variant. People do care about the version of the game used in the richest professional pool tournament in the world. oknazevad (talk) 22:17, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Marking this resolved, since we now have coverage of the modern, pro game.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  12:29, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Scratch vs. foul

Resolved

Some definition of "scratch" needs to be added to this article. It first appears shortly before the Fouls section, and no distinction is made between scratching and fouling. -Jordgette [talk] 20:23, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Agree, as most readers understand what a foul is. Scratch is specific to this topic.--KasiaNL (talk) 08:07, 12 April 2020 (UTC) (banned sock puppet - [16]) - GizzyCatBella🍁 20:05, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

A scratch is just a type of foul. If this isn't clear in the text, I can fix that.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  12:25, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

"Scratch" no longer appears in the article. All the fouls are covered, including pocketing the cue ball or knocking it off the table (two meanings of "scratch"), so there is no reason to use the ambiguous slang term "scratch", really.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  12:28, 3 February 2024 (UTC)