Talk:Anne de Mortimer

Untitled

Suggested entry for another, contemporary 'Anne Mortimer'. How does one add an entry as an 'alternative' to a primary entry?

Anne Mortimer (b 1960) Artist and book illustrator, well known for her super-realist cat illustrations and botanical work. Anne Mortimer ranks among Britain's most talented illustrators and is widely recognized as one of the finest contemporary painters of cats anywhere in the world. Anne is also an accomplished painter of birds, botanicals and miniatures and has won awards from the Society of Botanical Artists and the Royal Miniature Society.

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I've asked about this at Wikipedia Help. NinaGreen (talk) 16:26, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Apparently nobody has yet deemed the artist worth the effort of creating an article about. If you know enough and have reliable sources (i.e., nothing from her own website, just solid neutral reports), then create one and title it Anne Mortimer (artist); then put hatnotes on both articles to distinguish them from each other. We don't do disambiguation pages if there are only two notable persons of that name. However: leave out all the peacock words: promotional crap garbage like "...well known for...", "...ranks among Britain's most talented illustrators...", "...widely recognized as one of the finest contemporary painters of cats anywhere in the world. Anne is also an accomplished painter..." will get you tossed out on your ear as a spammer of some kind. --Orange Mike | Talk 16:40, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the tips. I'll leave it up to someone who knows more about the artist. NinaGreen (talk) 17:16, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Reference for place of Anne Mortimer's birth

Jeanne boleyn, thanks for adding the citation for the place of Anne Mortimer's birth. I've added it to the References section of the article. NinaGreen (talk) 15:51, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

No problem. I have long been fascinated by the Mortimer family and indeed, I have created articles on various family members and those connected by marriage.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:23, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Date of birth

The article states that she was "Born on 27 December 1388". However, Genealogics gives 1390. Her mother's article says that her parents' marriage took place "on or about 7 October 1388. Although it is of course possible for a child to be born less than three months after her parents' wedding, I suggest that premarital cohabitation would be unlikely between two fourteenth-century aristocratic teenagers. Her maternal grandparents would have had too much to lose if the wedding had failed to take place for any reason. Comments? Alekksandr (talk) 18:58, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Sources

• Dugdale, William (1849). John Caley; Henry Ellis & Bulkeley Bandinel (eds.). Monasticon Anglicanum. Vol. 6 (1) (new ed.). London: T.G. March. p. 355.
• Gransden, A. (1992). Legends, Traditions and History in Medieval England. London: Hambledon Press (published 1992-07-01). ISBN 978-1-85285-016-6.
• Tout, T.F. (1894). "Mortimer, Roger (VI) de, fourth Earl of March" . In Lee, Sidney (ed.). Dictionary of National Biography. Vol. 39. London: Smith, Elder & Co.
• Richardson, Douglas (2011). Magna Carta Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families, ed. Kimball G. Everingham. Vol. III (2nd ed.). Salt Lake City.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link) ISBN 1-4499-6639-X

The Yorkist Claim

The lede includes the statement "It was her line of descent which gave the Yorkist dynasty its claim to the throne". The statement is again repeated on the "House of York" wiki page but gives it in terms of cognatic primogeniture vs agnatic primogeniture. Both lack references so I was wondering if any could explain how the Yorkist dynasty did not already have a claim through Edmund Duke of York being the son of Edward III. As such should the lede perhaps instead say that "her marriage and line of descent strengthened the Yorkist claim to the throne" Kind Regards, NotAnotherNameGuy (talk) 09:13, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Anne was descended from Lionel of Antwerp, who was Edward III's second son, whereas her husband Richard was the descendant of Edmund of Langley, Edward III's fourth son. So from a strictly genealogical point of view, Lionel's line had priority over Edmund's.

However, the succession had already been taken out of the realm of the strictly genealogical in 1399 when Henry IV overthrew Richard II. Henry was the descendent of John of Gaunt, who was Edward III's third son. Richard had no children, and during his reign had recognized Lionel of Antwerp's descendants as his heirs. At the time of Henry's usurpation, the senior heir from this line was Anne's brother Edmund, who was only eight years old, and he never pressed his claim to the throne.

At any rate, when the Yorkists began claiming a genealogical right to the throne, they did so based on their descent from Lionel of Antwerp (son #2) via Anne, because that was the more senior line. The Yorkists were Plantaganets because of their male-line descent from Edmund of Langley (son #4), but England considered royal succession through female lines to be OK -- that was their whole argument as to why Edward III and his heirs were the rightful heirs to the French throne, after all! Obviously the Yorkists could only make their claim good through gaining political support and through force of arms, but when they made their genealogical argument, they did it using the best claim available to them, which was through Anne. --Jfruh (talk) 17:37, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Also (and perhaps this better answers your question) it was only the Yorkists who were descended from Anne who actually claimed the throne. After Anne died, her widower Richard participated in the Southampton Plot to overthrow Henry V, but the aim of that plot had been to put Anne's brother Edmund, not a Yorkist, on the throne. (They did so without Edmund's consent and the plot was actually unraveled when Edmund reported it to the King.) The first Yorkist to stake a claim on the throne was Anne and Richard's son, Richard of York. So it doesn't make sense to say "her marriage and line of descent strengthened the Yorkist claim to the throne," because the Yorkists didn't have or make a claim to the throne until after she had married into the family. Jfruh (talk) 18:09, 17 May 2023 (UTC)