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This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record.
The result of the debate was Delete. Rje 21:54, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)

Surrealist Group of Pakistan

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As there seems a developing consensus above to purge post-War Surrealist fancruft, this one gets 105 google hits. -- Infrogmation 19:08, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

  • Keep. Quite significant in history of surrealism as issuers of Against the Dictatorship of Allah. And purging information on postwar surrealism is POV. --Daniel C. Boyer 21:26, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
    • Note I voted to keep the two Surrealism related articles above that got 1,000 or more google hits. I'll do likewise for any other article even with low google hits if notability can be shown in major published sources-- say, a mention in the N.Y. Times, the Guardian, whatever. As is, I find without the word "Wikipedia", google gets 56 hits for "Surrealist Group of Pakistan". "Against the Dictatorship of Allah" gets 23 hits, without the word "Wikipedia" gets 16, only 7 of which are displayed as unique. I'm open to being convinced some of these articles are about subjects more significant than the average garage band with a self-produced demo cd and occasional gigs at a neighborhood bar, but I've yet to see the evidence. -- Infrogmation 05:51, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete Infrogmation they are extremely non-notable and literally unknown in any literary reviews and lacking any credible information that can justify their work by critics, media, museums, etc. Plus the fact that Google brings up only 105 hits on this, "surrealist" group that was supposed to exist in Pakistan (of all places) since 1978 shows that this, "surrealist" group is bogus. Plus, this, "pamphlet" supposedly written by them, "Against the Dictatorship of Allah" is promotion on here anyway, I am surprised that this, "surrealist group" really could have written such a pamphlet denouncing Allah, in of all places in the world, Pakistan! This is bogus information and does not belong on Wikipedia.Classicjupiter2 00:37, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete, yep, this is part of an attempt to spam WP with hoaxy stealth ads. Wyss 01:09, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep, but with reservations. Article needs expansion. Megan1967 02:57, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete. No adequate evidence even of existence, let alone notability; could this be a surreal joke? - Mustafaa 08:09, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
    • Yes, Mustafaa, I am convinced that this,"pamphlet", "Against the Dictatorship of Allah" is just a goof.Classicjupiter2 18:04, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
    • See http://www.surrealcoconut.com/surrealist_documents/pakistan_surrealist_group.htm . --Daniel C. Boyer 15:24, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
      • Regarding the above, "reference" from this, "Surrealcoconut" website. It is one of those FREE WEBSITES that you can build online(kind of like geocities, you know), and a virtual soapbox, especially when you look at the introductory statement to the site, "Surrealism is not an art movement, etc.etc.etc,". That is just the view of the website artist Eric W.Bragg, who is an unknown anyway, and a very close friend of Daniel C.Boyer's, go figure.Classicjupiter2 18:04, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete as vanity. Radiant! 08:59, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)
    • Are you on something? Not only am I not a member of the Surrealist Group of Pakistan, I've never even been there. How can it be "vanity"? --Daniel C. Boyer 15:24, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep. Seems to be a real group, mentioned in some surrealism sites. But the article needs expanding. E.g. what artists belonged to it? BTW has anyone searched Google in other languages than English? -Hapsiainen 17:28, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)
    • If you cannot find any evidence online about this group and its members, it really is a scam. I have been looking for a real long time and there is nothing! No mention of them in any art publications or literary publications at all. Maybe if there is a Wikipedia type encyclopedia in Pakistan that can dig up some dirt, but with a title like, "Against the Dictatorship of Allah", that could be a problem, you know, in Pakistan!Classicjupiter2 18:04, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
      • The URL the statement is at is given above. And your webcentric, Googlecentric attitude you don't see fit in the slightest to justify. --Daniel C. Boyer 18:10, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
        • Dan, I really am trying to work with you and everyone here in getting to the credible facts and quality research. We are examing the facts and I cannot find any substantial information on this group outside of the five plus, "surrealism" websites that are really not a legitimate reference source on surrealism anyway. Dan, both you and I can get a geocities website, or one like your friend Eric's, "Surrealcoconut" and build the site and then copy and paste anything that we find online from other, "surrealism" websites and then state that we are the voices of, "contemporary surrealism" etc., etc., etc., you know. Does the surrealism expert Mary Ann Caws recognize this, "group" as credible? Were did they exhibit their art and display their writings? Were did they met? Were did they get their publications published? WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE? What are their names? Can we verify who they are? What do they look like? Come on Dan! If I was a college student doing a paper on Surrealism after 1950 to now, you know, Surrealism today, I would have nothing on this group, really, expect a handful of websites, (around five to six) that say they exist, but that is it!Classicjupiter2 19:35, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
          • Once again, how about offline sources? (Books that you are going to find bases for criticism of as well.) --Daniel C. Boyer 20:21, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
            1. Re: Does the surrealism expert Mary Ann Caws recognize this, "group" as credible? Were did they exhibit their art and display their writings? Given that surrealism is not a literary or artistic movement, this is completely irrelevant. --Daniel C. Boyer 20:21, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
            2. Re: Were did they met? Were did they get their publications published? WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE? What are their names? Can we verify who they are? And show pictures, perhaps? For we have to have photographs of everyone just to prove that they exist. And then when the photographs are produced raise a whole new set of objections about how they look. Oh, great. You haven't disappointed me. --Daniel C. Boyer 20:21, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • I have to change my vote to delete. Although the phenomenons in Pakistan are underrepresented in Google, the Lust for Life zine, which originally published the pamphet on the web, fails to tell where it found it. Such is inadequate and dubious. -Hapsiainen 22:21, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete, no verifiable evidence of existence let alone anyone caring - David Gerard 00:30, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.

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