Talk:Click consonant

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word-initial

only word-initial clicks: Not true. Xhosa and Zulu have lots of words with clicks in the middle, such as iqaqa (some stinky mustelid), uqhoqhoqho(Z)/uqhoqhoqha(Xh) (larynx), and esanqoba.

I believe it says that no initial OR FINAL clicks. Since isiZulu and isiXhosa are Bantu languages, all words end either in a vowel or in a nasal consonant, not clicks.

Be bold, go correct those errors! :) Dysprosia 10:04, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)

IPA

In IPA transcription, the symbols ʘ, ǀ, ǁ, ǂ, and ! are used to represent bilabial, dental, alveloar lateral, alveolar, and retroflex clicks respectively.

Could someone with the appropriate font render these out as graphics?

Why not just use Unicode?

language groups

Hadza and Sandawe are languages, not "language groups", although if they are unrelated to any other language (and many linguists still regard them as Khoisan), they would by default be language _families_.

Kirshenbaum

While the quote about the Kirshenbaum system is verbatim, I have a problem with the section of the quote that says that the clicks are infrequent in the languages most often discussed (more than 50% of all words in !Kung begin with a click). Also, the reference to "IPA diacritics" could be misleading; there are no diacritics, but there are four full characters for clicks. That aside, I don't see how t! in the Kirshenbaum system is any less ambiguous than // in SAMPA. The use of SAMPA // is fine in most languages that use clicks, because two unaspirated voiceless clicks cannot appear next to each other in the Khoisan or the Bantu languages that use them. thefamouseccles

sound samples

Would it be possible for anyone to include a sound samples of these click consonants? I have read Manner_of_articulation, but as a north-american, I must say I am utterly incapable of following these instructions to make any sort of sound. UnHoly 23:22, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

There are samples on bilabial click, dental click, alveolar lateral click, palatal click, and postalveolar click. They are produced by Peter Ladefoged, who deserves a page if he doesn't have one. Nohat 00:09, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

That helped a lot! Thanks. UnHoly 04:51, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

There are also sound samples at the external link of ‡Hõã. kwami 04:20, 18 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

the accompaniments

i just added the data, will someone please fix it up to table format? Benwing 08:48, 22 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, thanks for putting all that in. I've added a few more languages; except for Damin, they're all from L's articles in the UCLA Working Papers in Phonetics. ǂHõã is worth looking at for more accompaniments, as it's quite rich; I'll see if I can track down my papers. (I think the phonetics was done by Traill, who L relied on for his data.) !Ora might also be worth a look, and certainly N/u if anything is ever published. The Tshu-Khwe languages are pretty impoverished click-wise, so might not give us a lot that's new, but could help show what's more commonly found. kwami 19:53, 2005 July 22 (UTC)

Added some ‡Hõã as well, but it's from one of L's old html pages, and thus ASCII, so the identities really need to be verified. For example, what seemed by its transcription to be a uvular ejective sounds like a uvular followed by glottal stop, so I counted it as that. But my ear isn't good enough to be able to tell with many of them, and the sound quality isn't great. kwami 08:22, 2005 July 23 (UTC)

‡Hõã was actually from a Cornell website, which is now linked. Found a better description in Collins, which also included G|ui. kwami 03:45, 18 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yeyi

I am a South African and have never heard of a Southern African language called yeyi. If no one gets back to us soon I suggest we remove the listing.

Who said it was South African? Yeyi is spoken by about half an ethnic group of 50,000 in Botswana. 66.27.205.12 04:24, 24 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

tenuis

please do not use "tenuis" as this is an obsolete term. Benwing 04:15, 24 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, it probably is. But it's so much more convenient than "unvoiced unaspirated"! 66.27.205.12 04:24, 24 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

there is usually no need to say "unaspirated". Benwing 05:57, 24 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"Unvoiced" as frequently used includes aspirated. Not important in English, but it is in languages with phonemic aspiration, as here. In the source material Ladefoged spelled it out as "unvoiced unaspirated" -- wording I always found tedious, which is why I changed it to tenuis. Don't blame you for objecting to that, but it's probably best to retain the original precision, especially with sounds as complex as these! kwami 06:07, 2005 July 24 (UTC)

‡Hõã

I had added ‡Hõã some time ago, but my source was not very reliable. (It might not even be the right language!) Can anyone verify? If not, we should probably delete these entries. Seems a shame, though. kwami 21:58, 2005 August 31 (UTC)

Confirmed, with a few corrections. kwami 03:47, 18 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Origins

any info on the origins of click consonants? It seems clear how many consonants in many languages are formed, and how they all are related to easy sounds for a baby to make, "b, p, m, d, t, n, g, k, ng" but how do clicks originate? I've noted among the nonsense cooing of babies some clicks happen, but how were these transferred into language? Does the world proto-language include clicks? How did they arise? etc. etc. Could they be evidence of language evolving indepedently in different parts of the world? --ChadThomson 05:20, 17 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

No one knows. However, it seems likely that they're related to doubly articulated consonants. Labial-velars, for example, are easily transformed into implosives (if voiced) and ejectives (if voiceles), so a new airstream mechanism isn't necessarily problematic. In several languages, lateral clicks are easily confused with lateral affricates. kwami 22:18, 17 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Orthographies

So clicks are represented in IPA like this, and in ASCII renderings of IPA like that, but how do the respective languages' orthographies deal with clicks? I guess most, if not all of them use the Latin alphabet when written, and this would have to have been innovated since the Romans didn't use clicks. My non–South African layman's impression is that the Bantu languages featuring clicks tend to use Latin letters like Q or C, or digraphs as in 'Xhosa', while Khoisan languages tend to use (in addition, since they have more clicks?) 'letters' like //, !, ', etc. (Is // a letter or a digraph? A ligature? How are these strange glyphs collated, eg in a Namibian phone book?) Could anyone enlighten me and other readers on this subject?

Good question about Namibian phonebooks. I don't know if there are even entries for these symbols. That's worth checking out. Most of the collation I've seen either places them at the beginning of the alphabet, or ignores them and collates according to the first Latin letter.

Few Khoisan languages are written on a regular basis. Nama is, and I believe Sandawe might be as well (I've heard elementary education is conducted in Sandawe), but I think that's about it. Nama at least uses the | || ! # system. || is not a digraph, but a separate letter, although it might have originally been iconically bipartite, representing the two sides. (! was originally | with the retroflex underdot diacritic; and the horizontal lines of the # might have indicated the palate?) The IPA came up with a separate set of symbols, more in keeping with the Latin alphabet, but reverted because the | || ! # system is nearly universal among Khoisanists and Khoisan literature. Bantu, of course, is restricted to the Latin alphabet for clicks. I don't think Yeyi is written, and I believe that is the only Bantu language with the palatal click. kwami 23:28, 29 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Click consonants in English

Aren't we lucky not to have to use click consonants in everyday speech? They sound hard. 203.167.171.81 09:41, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you had them and learned them since childhood, you wouldn't find them any more difficult than, say, [k] or [ʧ]. — N-true 12:00, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, maybe a little harder to learn than [k] or [tʃ], but easier than [θ] or [r] - kids pick them up by the age of three. kwami 01:43, 27 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(Actually, 2-year-olds can differentiate various clicks before they can pronounce [s]! kwami 08:10, 8 October 2007 (UTC))[reply]

Revision needed

I don't know if I'll have time to revise this page based on new research into the Nǀu language. See that page and Velaric ingressive for what I think needs doing. kwami 01:43, 27 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Click consonants used to mean "no"

From the article: 'in Persian a click accompanied by tipping the head upwards signifies "no".'

Tipping the head upwards is the gesture used for "no" in Greece as well. My Greek teacher would tut as she did this - I don't know whether it was her habit (maybe showing disapproval that we, her students, had made a mistake) or if it is widespread in Greece (I don't remember hearing it when I've been in Greece), but, if the latter, possibly this is used elsewhere in (or maybe even throughout) south-eastern Europe and the Middle East. Is there any evidence for this? — Paul G 07:37, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

An isolated dental click for 'no' is pretty common in the region. kwami 08:09, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Starting to provide references; major rewrite

I'm taking some guidance from WP:CITE. The style is chatty, not right for an academic presentation. Several assertions are dubious. There is redundancy. There is excess detail. The edits I just made just scratch the surface. Hurmata (talk) 08:42, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please bring up dubious assertions here rather than just deleting them. Most are defensible. kwami (talk) 09:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Click's origins

Actually, about there being no evidence to support that clicks are ancient sounds, I found an article in the New York Times called "In Click Languages, an Echo of the Tongues of the Ancients" by Nicholas Wade on March 18, 2003, which says click sounds may be some of the oldest sounds in languages. Perhaps the ideas expressed there are significant enough to warrant noting on the article page? Captain Gamma (talk) 01:16, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's a common myth. Clicks are found in primitive languages, so they must be primitive too. We know the languages are primitive, because they're spoken by primitive people. Etc. It makes about as much sense as recent BBC reports that Aka-Bo was one of the world's oldest languages, a completely meaningless statement. kwami (talk) 01:21, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This presumes quite a bit about evolution, and that all humans came from Africa. Therefore the argument is pointless, and I would be willing to bet that someone who says this is a new feature is a non-evolutionist, while those who think humans who migrated from Africa think this is an old feature that most other languages have lost, albeit just at point while leaving Africa. This conjecture ("Actually, about there being no evidence to support that clicks are ancient sound...") is pointless at best, and needs to be removed, because of its extreme level of speculation about taboo subjects. --Ryandward (talk) 15:22, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

All humans did come from Africa, but that's much too long ago to be relevant. kwami (talk) 06:10, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Difficulty

While what the article currently says is true (click consonants aren't difficult to produce; children pick them up, etc.), I believe the real difficulty with clicks isn't producing them in isolation, but producing them as consonants in between vowels in the regular flow of speech. I wasn't sure if this needed a source to be added, but I feel it's relevant to the Difficulty section. 76.167.253.199 (talk) 21:56, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You're right, that wasn't clear. It is clear in the citation (a clause with both a /ǁ/ and a /s/ in it, the latter mispronounced as /tʃ/). — kwami (talk) 05:15, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Doke's bilabial symbol is not in Unicode

In the Competing orthographies table in the Transcription section, the character  (U+F211) is used for Doke's bilabial click symbol. That character is non standard PUA and it probably not in most people's system fonts. Kwamikagami added this character in a modification on 6 May 2008 --Moyogo/ (talk) 18:07, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's in SIL fonts, which are common for readers who use IPA. I doubt most non-IPA people would be all that interested. Can you suggest a better solution? — kwami (talk) 18:25, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

My browser doesn't display it. --JorisvS (talk) 18:30, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have some SIL fonts installed (Charis SIL, Doulos SIL, Gentium Plus, etc.) I don't see anything for . --Moyogo/ (talk) 19:28, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Mine doesn't display it on this page, but does in the article, where the font is specified. Which browser are you using? — kwami (talk) 19:39, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

My Chrome neither displays it here, nor in the article. --JorisvS (talk) 19:41, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

So, neither  (formatted) nor  (unformatted) display? Perhaps {{IPA}} needs to be updated. — kwami (talk) 19:43, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That's right. --JorisvS (talk) 19:44, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I asked at Template_talk:IPA. Maybe you can give the details there. — kwami (talk) 20:06, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I will, if I know what details to provide. --JorisvS (talk) 20:09, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well, are you on a Mac? I don't think the template does anything for Macs. etc. If they have questions. — kwami (talk) 20:27, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Windows 8. And my computer using Windows 7 does not display anything either. Trying Firefox or Internet Explorer does not make it work. Chrome gives white blocks, whereas Firefox gives a block with the text F2 11 in two rows and Internet Explorer white blocks without a border, regardless of the version of Windows. --JorisvS (talk) 20:49, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

What symbol is this supposed to be anyway? I don't think using PUA is a good idea. I’d rather use graphics. --Moyogo/ (talk) 18:56, 8 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Above, they still do not display, but the current symbol in the article, /ɋ/, does display for me. --JorisvS (talk) 07:54, 4 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Doke's palatal doesn't show up

Doke's symbol for the palatal doesn't show for me. What does it look like? And maybe it is a good idea to include an image. --JorisvS (talk) 07:54, 4 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Confusing names

Currently, there is a discrepancy between the description of characters in this article in the "Phonetics and IPA notation" section and in the names of the characters in IPA and Unicode:

Character	Article	IPA	Unicode
ʘ	Bilabial	Bilabial	Bilabial
ǀ	Dental	Dental	Dental
ǁ	Lateral	Alveolar lateral	Lateral
ǂ	Palatal	Palatoalveolar	Alveolar
ǃ	Alveolar	(Post)alveolar	Retroflex
𝼊 (ǃ with hook)	Retroflex	-	Retroflex click with retroflex hook

So:

There are no issues at all with ʘ (Bilabial) and ǀ (Dental).
There is a small issue with ǁ: It's Lateral in the article and in Unicode, but Alveolar lateral in IPA.
There is a major issue with ǂ: it's "Palatal" in the article, "Palatoalveolar" in IPA, and "Alveolar" in Unicode.
There is a major issue with ǃ: It's "Alveolar" in the article, "(Post)alveolar" in IPA, and "Retroflex" in Unicode.
There is a major issue with 𝼊 (ǃ with hook): It's "Retroflex" in the article, not mentioned in the current IPA chart, and it's "Retroflex click with retroflex hook" in Unicode, which is more a description of the character than a description of the sound.

The article should probably use mostly IPA names.

I'd try fixing it myself, but I'm really not an expert on these languages, so it should probably be done by someone who is. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 17:24, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We do cover the historical variation in names. We should use the consensus terms in the lit, which we already do. For instance, Maddieson and Ladefoged conclude that the 'palatoalveolar' clicks are simply palatal. [Ladefoged was president of the IPA.]

No language is known to make a meaningful difference in place of lateral clicks, so 'lateral' should be enough for most purposes. We can explain that they're more or less alveolar when we get into the details. Same for the '[post]' in '[post]alveolar'. Those don't correlate well with the places of non-click consonants. I'd be tempted to bring back the term 'cerebral' or 'cacuminal' for them, if that weren't OR.

The Unicode terms are just character names and so irrelevant to anything except Unicode characters. — kwami (talk) 03:21, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]