Talk:Lombardy

Milano

the page says milan is italy's second most visited town but, actually, the link says it is in third position after Rome and Venice! Moreover there should be some explanation, i don't think milan is, even, third in terms of touristic value because it is visited for business purposes more than touristic ones...if we count how many people come to milan each year for art and culture the city, probably, would be behind other towns like florence (apart from rome the ones we cited before) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.14.36.152 (talk) 12:40, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Province of Lombardy:Monza and Brianza

Province of Monza and Brianza, is an officially province of Italy and now it is operational. The province of Monza and Brianza is indipendent from the province of Milan! Visit the web official site www.provincia.mb.it. The inhabitants oh the province of Milan 3.170.273 and are not longer 3.900.000.

Map

Unfortunately the map shows Liguria not Lombardy -- can someone edit? --mervyn 14:32, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Done. I have also used the flag from the Italian wikipedia. Kumo 12:34, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Link spam

ItalianVisits.com, is just link spam, a two small pages with 6 small uncaptioned photos and 3 links, the purpose of which is to draw people to "I.V. Tours".

The person who added ItalianVisits has systematically gone thru the 20 regions on Wikipedia to add that site to each, without any regard for improving Wikipedia, no attempt even at adding the official site for the various regions. This is therefore a link spam campaign, and should probably be considered vandalism. I've warned that user, and if need be (there have already been some reverts for other regional pages) will put them on the Vandalism in Progress page. If you have this page on your watchlist, please help in maintaining the quality of the links! Bill 14:03, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Rebuttal to Bill Thayer

Bill, I am the "someone" who added links to ItalianVisits.com on the various Italian Regional sites - and I don't think I was commiting "link spam" or engaged in vandalism when I did so. ItalianVisits.com is a serious endeavour being undertaken by my daughter, Jesse Andrews, who for the past 2 years has been living in Praia A Mare, in the northwest region of Calabria. My other daughter, Arianna, is attending university at the University for Foreigners in Perugia, and also contributes to the ItalianVisits website when she can.

If you look at the section on Calabria, you will see how much work and effort has been put into cataloguing towns and villages that are virtually unknown to English-speaking people, whether they are travelers or tourists, or people who have a curiousity about the area. You will note, I hope, the abundance of wonderful photographs that compliment the text, and present our viewers with images that otherwise would not be available. Incidentally, you should also note the link to Wikipedia resources whereever and whenever there is material on Wikidpedia about a region, town or other locale. We are as committed to Wikipedia as you are.

Jesse has created a vessel into which more information is being added every day. I just spent 15 days in Umbria, for instance, and added pages for Perugia, Assisi, Spello, Bevagna, Gubbio and the Regional Park at Colfiorito. Other contributors, like Katherine Lavallee, have added information about other towns in Tuscany. Such contributions are solicited eagerly so that we can fatten the content on the site.

ItalianVisits.com is hardly a come-on for selling tour packages, although we are trying to attract people to "unknown" parts of Italy, and in so doing, get some business to those out of the way places for local restauranteurs, hoteliers, and others in the travel business. If you are aware of what is going on in Italy now, you will understand that the economy is depressed, owing largely to various difficulties it has and is facing as it tries to integrate with the EU, and as it attempts to compete in a global economy. So, having information for travelers can not be the sine qua non of "link spam". If you look at all the external links listed in the Umbria section of Wikipedia, a number of them are active promoters of travel to the Region. Even in the Sardegna section where you posted identical comments to the comments you made here there is a link to a site called ActivSardegna which promotes travel. Should all of these be removed? And if so, by whom and under what (hopefully) reasonably well-defined policy?

You can coin or use phrases like "link spam", and "cyber vandalism", or other terms of denigration, but I think you, and others who "worry" about Wikipedia, should be careful not to sit on Wikipedia with a holier than thou attitude, deleting other people's contributions, unless a more thorough investigation is done into the content, and sometimes into the motives and objectives of their creators. Many people spend a lot of time, money and energy trying to do good without much reward beyond the satisfactions it provides. This effort to "do good" is manifest on your site Bill, at least, so far as I can see, and I commend you for it.

I'm a bit more than a little chagrined about what you have done Bill, and about how you have characterized ItalianVisits, but I hope we can discuss this if you think I am making an untenable argument in favour of allowing us to post links to the IV website, without fear of having them removed by the over-zealous.

Regards Vian Andrews Vancouver, BC July 28, 2005

I guess no response to this, which is interesting.LeValley 06:22, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Republic of Lombardy

History section needs expantion. Can anybody create an article about the Republic of Lombardy?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 00:39, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Varese

I'm sure there is a mistake: the population of Varese's city is more or less between 81000 and 83000. So it's impossible they're 96000 (or 86000). Paolotacchi (talk) 14:27, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Italian GDP contribution?

The opening paragraph says Lombardy is responsible for a quarter of Italy's GDP, but the Economy section states it is one fifth. tildetildetildetilde —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.229.180.218 (talk) 03:05, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

How come that Lombardy GDP per capita is lower than Italy GDP per capita, although Lombardy is the richest region in Italy? Italy GDP per capita should be a weighted average of the GDP per capita of all the 20 regions, therefore how could such average be higher than its biggest contributor? --Abacos (talk) 19:35, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Use of the word "invasion"

In order for the Celts to "invade" anywhere, there had to be pre-existing peoples in those lands. Could the article please specify who, exactly, were invaded by the Celts? Is this article claiming with certainty that the Hallstadt Culture was not Celtic? I am surprised that this huge question has been settled and would like to see a citation. What archaelogical evidence is there of earlier peoples in, say, Tuscany or Rome? There are grinding stones (recently found in Tuscany) of great antiquity, but the proto-Celts have the same technology at about the same time. If the Celts are the first people who come to Italy in any great numbers, how can there be an invasion? Who made it clear that the Etruscans are not from proto-Celtic/Gallic stock? If they are not near cousins of the "invaders", who are they? Some believe the Etruscans were Hellenic, but seriously, does anyone have a citation that settles the matter? Seems there are an equal number of scholars who think the Etruscans are related to northerners (what the article is apparently calling Gallic-Celtic tribes).--LeValley 06:17, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

???? the article is simply lacking - it simply needs to be expanded. Celts didn't invade "Lombardy" as it was yet a celtic speaking country with a celtic and proto-celtic culture dating from the 15th century BCE, the invaders were more correctly [Gauls]] aka the most representative group of the La Tène culture celts. different peoples (ligurians and celtic-ligurains predominantly) had inhabited the region and before the gallic invasion etruscans were the politically/economically dominat group in "Lombardy" but demographically they were inexistent. see at Etrurian padania Cunibertus (talk) 15:34, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

• sorry, it was Padanian Etruria Cunibertus (talk) 15:36, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Lombardy's namesake is not Celtic, it's from Germanic tribes (Langobards) whom settled in Northern Italy, possible Albanian/Illyrian origins (Lom Bardhi-"White river") connected to the Etruscans and Ligurians who are also thought to be pre-Indo-European, and even "Rom Bar/Par/Var-da" sounds Persian or Iranian, typical Indo-Aryan terminology ("Roma" means "honorable", similar to terms Rome in Italy and Romani people). Anyways, the article has the sources on theories of the region's namesake, but if I find anything I can contribute, I'm going to edit and post a reliable source to the article in the future. 2605:E000:100D:C571:6DCE:ABEA:BC50:DF93 (talk) 03:08, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

File:PalazzoLombardia2.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Lombardy is a nation?

Please consider wheather it is appropriate or not to state that Lombardy is a nation as part of the first section, which deals with Lombadys nominial status and factual position within Italy. One could choose wordings closer to "Lombady is a region of Italy" or equivalent in stead. If Lombardy is defined as a nation as well as in region, it might be better suited to mentioned this in the section concerning administrative status, or if it is defined as a culturally to mentioned this in the culturel section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.104.99.6 (talk) 16:41, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

no is not, is an Italian region.AlfaRocket (talk) 13:14, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

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One ridiculous etymology: should be removed.

In the section Etymology at the beginning the article says that according to some scholars (???) the name could come from proto-Albanian. This is simply ridiculous. Unless the Germanic Lombards took their name from Albanians or Illyrians, which is very, VERY unlikely. So, please, simply REMOVE that embarrassing part. It's like saying: the Earth is a geoid... but according to some scholars it is flat. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.116.87.129 (talk) 20:11, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

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Copyediting

I noticed that one of the sections (notably, the Economy section) had quite a few grammatically incorrect sentences. I suspect this has to do with writing done by someone who has English as a non-primary language. I'm going to tag this article as being in need for copyediting, as I've probably only brushed the surface. Electricmaster (talk) 08:17, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

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Wine

In the article, the agriculture chapter was very lacking in the part in which it dealt with the wines of the region, because it only mentioned the production of Franciacorta and did not mention all the others. I copied some content from the Lombardia (wine) article which is much more complete and precise

FabioRomanoni (talk) 09:19, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Lombardy article, Sports section suggestion

The cycling content in Sports section of Lombardy article should mention Il Lombardia in addition to the Giro reference. 73.241.15.135 (talk) 16:33, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Gallo-Roman

Gallo-Roman Why do you insist on calling people Gallo-Roman a purely fictional word which no one self identified as? People would have considered themselves Romans and their language the Latin or Roman language, Stevan.

@Lompo2409: I'm not insisting doing anything, cause I didn't write that word here, but:

1) if you want to invalidate the Gallo-Roman word on Wikipedia at all, saying it's "fictional", you have firstly to invalidate the whole Gallo-Roman culture page, before coming to a single use of that;

2) as I wrote in my last edit, it doesn't matter much how they used to call themselves at their time, since what matters is how they are indicated today: e.g. the Gauls were not used to call themselves Gauls (it comes from Galli, which was just the way the Romans called them), but nonetheless we keep on calling them Gauls;

3) as far as I know, in Linguistics, Gallo-Romania is a region extended to Northern Italy until 1000 A.D. at least (G. B. Pellegrini about medieval Vulgar Latin spoken there), so I can't really see what's wrong with that.

--Stévan (talk) 07:19, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

I have reverted your addition because it is unsourced. A Gallo-Roman culture did exist, but in Gaul. Here we are talking about Cisalpine Gaul, which was occupied by the Romans two hundred years earlier, was heavily Romanized, even with the founding of colonies, and became part of Italy under Augustus. And we are talking about culture, not linguistics. Where are the manifestations of Gallo-Roman culture in Lombardy? Can you give me some examples? I personally have never read that the people living in Lombardy during the empire has been defined as Gallo-Roman. However, if you have reliable sources that define them that way, go ahead and reinsert your additions. Alex2006 (talk) 09:27, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

P.S. According to Devoto ("The Language of Italy") today's Gallo-Italic dialects did not arise because the populations were Gallic, but because of the influence during the late imperial period of Gallo-Roman culture (the schools of rhetoric in Lyons were particularly prestigious) in northern Italy and because of the increase in relations between northern Italy and Gaul, while those with Rome had become less and less important. Alex2006 (talk) 09:43, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

P.P.S. I found a reliable source that explains the situation (The section on the Celts in "Italia omnium terrarum alumna," by Venceslav Kruta). In northern Italy there was a Gallo-Roman period, lasting from the second to the first century B.C. . When that ended, the acculturation of those populations was "swift and final", and thus they became fully romanized. Alex2006 (talk) 10:25, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

@Alessandro57, it's not a big deal, because, as I said in the previous comment, I got the source (and that's from one of the major Italian ethno-linguists, Pellegrini), so I'm just gonna add it; but I would find tens, if you prefer.

Whether Gallo-Italic languages developed because of Cisalpine Gaulish substratum or because of Gallo-Roman superstratum (possibly both), it doesn't matter: what is said is that this area was part of the Gallo-Roman cultural and linguistic macro-region until 1000 A.D. at least, so it covers the period in which the term is used within this page. Stévan (talk) 10:28, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

@Alessandro57, I read just now your last comment about the source you found. But... of course the Romanisation of Gauls was completed, because all Gallo-Romans (Transalpine Gauls included) were 100% Romans. The term Gallo-Romans indicates those 100%-Romans who lived in Gauls (so including Cisalpine), having their regional culture and speaking their characteristic Vulgar Latin, NOT those who were just "partially Romans".

So: we are not discussing about when and if they became Romans, as it fully happened long before the Fall of Western Empire; we are just looking at whether Cisalpine Gaul 100%-Roman inhabitants were Gallo-Romans or not, and source says: yes, they were part of Gallo-Romania. --Stévan (talk) 12:26, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

If the source say yes, please add it: but consider that the source which I found says that the gallo-roman substrate in Gallia cisalpina lasted only two hundred years, then the inhabitants were fully assimilated. What is for you a Gallo-roman? They had a peculiar culture. That's why I am asking you to bring some example: here in switzerland there are plenty of gallo-roman temples, dedicated to local deities, and built in the imperial age, but I know none in Lombardy. Alex2006 (talk) 13:29, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Another source that confirms what I wrote: "DE-CONSTRUCTING ETHNIC IDENTITIES: BECOMING ROMAN IN WESTERN CISALPINE GAUL?". The author affirm that the cultural integration in the roman world took place with the principate. Alex2006 (talk) 13:55, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

@Alessandro57, I already added it; he says:

"L'Italia settentrionale nei secoli del tardo impero ed in quelli successivi sino al 1000 (forse anche dopo) risulta strettamente collegata con la Gallia sul piano politico e linguistico; si può parlare senza tema di errore di un'ampia 'Galloromania' che include non soltanto la Rezia ma anche la Cisalpina con buona parte del Veneto."

This is G. B. Pellegrini, who can't be suspected to have been a "northener", since he decided to include Gallo-Italic within Italo-Romance, rather than Gallo-Romance, in his linguistic maps; but he still called it Gallo-Italic because of its substratum (whether Gaulish, whether Gallo-Roman).

Obviously, this is based on linguistic evidences (vocalic phonology, syncope of vowels, lenition of consonants, lexicon, etc), but these are linked to a cultural continuity of the area; just later on, what was Gallo-Romance in Northern Italy became Gallo-Italic because of diglossia with Tuscan.

So, I think the point is the difference between what is Gaulish and what is Gallo-Roman, since the second one is a lot more comprehensive and extended in time.

PS: please let me know which temples you are referring to, cause I'm interested (I'm from the same area). Stévan (talk) 14:50, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

What would a person in 200AD in modern day Gaul respond with if you asked him the name of his culture, his countrymen, his identity and his history? What would this 200AD person in Gaul respond with if you called him a Gallo-Roman or his culture Gallo-Roman. Would he not see this as an insult with you saying he was not a Roman but a partial one? Lompo2409 (talk) 19:00, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

@Lompo2409 You already made this question and I already answered: "it doesn't matter much how they used to call themselves at their time, since what matters is how they are indicated today: e.g. the Gauls were not used to call themselves Gauls (it comes from Galli, which was just the way the Romans called them), but nonetheless we keep on calling them Gauls"; sources call 'em this way, so it's all right.

Anyways, Gallo-Romans doesn't mean "partially Romans" at all, but "Romans of the Gauls", that's definitely different... It's like Italian Swiss or French Canadians nowadays: it doesn't mean they are not fully Swiss or Canadians respectively, but just that they are a more specific part of them. Stévan (talk) 19:37, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

why do we call them gallo-romans then if they practiced almost the exact same gallic customs as the rest of the roman world? Lompo2409 (talk) 23:05, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

The source here says it is because they spoke a kind of Vulgar Latin that's referred as Gallo-Romance today, with its own features and connected to their culture, which is the father of modern Gallo-Romance languages.

But, as I told you before, this is not the place to discuss it, since there is a full Wikipage that tells about the whole argument: please go and try to make it deleted, if you reckon.

By the way, this obsessive insistence on this point, repeating always the same question, is curious; even because it looks very weird that is so unacceptable that Romans in the Gauls could have had any own peculiar culture or costumes... Even contemporary smaller national countries have internal cultural and linguistic regions, I can just guess what was in the vast Roman Empire at that time, with no mass media. Stévan (talk) 07:39, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Why not have Spartan-Greek culture listed for southern Greece and the people called Spartan-Greeks instead of Greeks for the peculiarities of this culture? Lompo2409 (talk) 03:07, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Because they are just called Spartans in sources (that's what matters here), implying they were Greeks, and their peculiar culture and social organisation are clearly described in Sparta page; but it is not incorrect to call them Spartan Greeks as well, in fact I just got 4k results on Google.

Gallo-Romans is used by authors in sources, instead, to not make confusion with what the inhabitants of Gallia were before their full Romanisation, when still speaking Gaulish and not Latin.

But, for the 10th time: this is not the place to discuss this topic, so you're kinda trolling here.

Thanks Stévan (talk) 07:01, 9 December 2022 (UTC)