Talk:Dragon (Middle-earth)

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Content Removal

The expansions are based on a piece I did for Everything2 some time ago. --Mirv 03:48, 26 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Pardon me, I know nothing of this. The article says one class of dragons have only front legs. I presume it should say they have only hind legs (plus maybe wings).

Paul, in Saudi

Front legs is right I think, the published descriptions make reference to the dragons dragging themselves along the ground rather than walking. Stan 17:27, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Hi, I think it might be a good idea to merge the articles about individual dragons with this one. They are quite stubby and may be there's not much more to say about them. What do you think? Lady Tenar 01:21, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The other reason to have separate articles is if there are lots of links to them, and you don't want to make the reader wade through a long article to answer a simple question. By that standard, only Smaug and Glaurung can justify their own articles - which makes sense because they are the only two "personalities" among the dragons mentioned in Tolkien. Stan 01:38, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

removed:

The dragons that the Ringwraiths rode were a type of Wyvern. They had legs and wings but no forelegs. They could not breath fire but the screeches they let out were high enough in pitch that they caused paralysis and instant fear. The Witch King's dragon was the leader of the Nine dragons and the most powerful. It is said that this dragon was strong enough to smash the walls of Minas Tirith with its claws. The claws were about a foot long and razor sharp and there were 4 of these on both feet of the dragons. Three toes pointed forward and one toe backward much like a bird's foot does.

The dragons however were rather weak and if a spear was thrown right, the dragon would die. Also the Witch King's dragon was beheaded by Eowyn as it tried to kill her grandfather or father I'm not sure which. The dragons had HUGE fangs and these fangs were said to have venom.

end removed

Why I removed it:

These were called fell beasts, not dragons.
They might have resembled wyverns but they were never named as such.
I believe the fear and paralysis were caused by the Nazgul, not their mounts.
The Witch-King's mount was not, in any description, different from the others.
If it was strong enough to smash the walls of Minas Tirith, why did they even bother with a siege?
The two that are killed were killed with an arrow and a sword, not a spear.
Theoden is Eowyn's uncle.
Who says their fangs are venomous?

—Charles P. ^(Mirv) 21:08, 9 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed Move

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move. —Nightst a llion (?) 09:56, 9 March 2006 (UTC) Please see the relevant discussion at Talk:Elves (Middle-earth). savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 09:45, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Dragon size

At least one anonymous user, represented by a few different IP addresses, has been adding information about dragon size - which as far as I am aware isn't present in the books. I have to ask him/her, where are you getting this from? David Day? If so, he is actually unreliable - read this - http://tolkien.slimy.com/essays/DayBooks.html Uthanc 19:59, 24 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Two dragons from the game

There are 2 dragons from the game 's of the lord of the rings, not of tolkien, but from Electronic arts and codemasters: Drogoth ( The batle for middle-eart 2) and the dragon of Helegoth (LOTRO)

Origin of the Dragons

This article states that

The dragons were created by Morgoth during the First Age, when Glaurung first appeared. It is stated in The Children of Húrin that they are great spirits. This means that they must be fallen Maiar (although some of Tolkien's earlier works, such as The Silmarillion, suggest that they were bred from a corrupted stock; see Glaurung).[2] Dragons were capable of breeding on their own, and in later ages the Withered Heath was purportedly their spawning ground.

This is both misleading and self contradicting, If the dragons where fallen Maiar then Melkor did not "create" them. If Melkor did create then he would not have had the power to grant self awareness to his creations creations.. The dragon's therefore would have stopped moving when Morgoth's thought was not with them.

It is highly feasable that Glaurung was a fallen Maiar and the rest of the species spread from him, in the same way the Shelob and the spiders of Mirkwood were offspring of Ungoliant and Melian the Maiar gave birth to Luthien, but this is again just speculation. Carl Sixsmith (talk) 08:42, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've gone ahead and removed this speculation, since this comment is a year old and there has been no objection. The Maiar claim is original research, and without it the "great spirit" statement doesn't need to be there, nor does the parenthetical. This section needs some work, and maybe I'll get around to that. At the very least it should mention when the winged dragons first appeared. Silpion (talk) 04:13, 8 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Use of "Worm" in popular culture

I read here ([1]) that "worm", as used to describe a type of modern virus, originates from Smaug the worm. Can this be inserted into the section about the Dragons' influence or legacy? Ykerzner (talk) 17:02, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The link you've given doesn't say that all, and the link to "great worm" of Tolkien are tenuous. The same site in fact gives an origin for "worm" (correctly) to tapeworms. http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/W/worm.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.97.97.99 (talk) 19:07, 24 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In Universe

The sections on Ancalagon are terribly fan crufty. Carl Sixsmith (talk) 16:23, 19 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Present tense

As per WP:INUNIVERSE#The problem with in-universe perspective, the present tense should be used for everything within the plot. Using the past tense for some parts suggests that we are at a certain point in the story, which we aren't. So that's why I've changed so much wording to be in the present tense, such as "The dragons are created in the First Age." Spock of Vulcan (talk) 18:59, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please see consensus at project. Middle-earth articles are written in past tense. 19:29, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Sorry about that! I wasn't aware that a separate standard had been established for Middle-earth. Thanks for the tip. :) Spock of Vulcan (talk) 19:39, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The dragons were created by Morgoth

The article says "The dragons were created by Morgoth". How is this consistent with Morgoth not being able to create new life from nothing (see Orc (Middle-earth)# and Flame Imperishable)? --79.40.133.176 (talk) 14:49, 26 February 2012 (UTC) I always take these references to "created" or "bred" by either Morgoth or Sauron to mean corrupted or mutated. By means of breeding or other physical and magical means. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.222.226.248 (talk) 06:58, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The history of the dragons is conflicting in the original text, in some works Morgoth created the evil creatures (dragons, trolls, orcs etc) that was changed later in writings when Morgoth became unable to generate life itself. Some of these self-contradictory histories have made it into different published works. The article does need clarifying to make these points I think. GimliDotNet (talk) 15:11, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've changed the verbiage to "bred" from "created" as I had heard of that terminology being used regarding evil characters inability to create. I got this impression during my viewing of the LOTR extended DVD edition. Breeding something is not the same as creating something. Nonetheless, I am uncertain if that solves the disputed terminology. Stylteralmaldo (talk) 00:55, 9 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]