Talk:Ohi Day

Okhi Day

Aren't the operations on Greek soil during World War II already covered in detail at another site? They shouldn't be covered under the name of a holiday. Shouldn't this entry simply set the holiday in context, with sufficient linking to the fighting that ensued? --Wetman 14:23, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I think that the military and political implications should be summarized in this entry to give significance to the celebration of the holiday- namely the diversion of Axis forces from other military fronts and the ferocity of Greek guerilla fighters in the mountains. Not many nations would celebrate a national leader merely saying "no" to invasion.

I think this article is reeking with sensational, agenda-promoting language ("Thanks to the spirit of heroism that characterized the greek peasants") and contains the sort of historical fallacies that are the product of wishful thinking ("rushed to voluntarily enlist in the army"). Please let an impartial historian edit this page and refrain from adding nationalistic touches. 140.180.133.124 15:51, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, all history must be sterilized. It is clearly in favor of the Greeks, assuming that refusing to fascist demands and contributing to the Allied cause in the Second World War is a "good" thing. This tone make it IMPOSSIBLE for readers to decide for themselves about this series of historical events.

This article is fine and has good spirit, leave it alone.

As a greek from pindus (the borders that were hit by italy) i would also add that great part in that situation played the 'women of pindus'. I have heard great stories about how that women, despite the extremelly cold of a unicque winter for the country, walked many many kilometres in the dangerous snowy mountains,in order to give to the soldiers not only equipment, but also medic supplies, food, and generally stuff that was extremelly important for their life and oufcourse for their low morrality. Most of these women after and IF they returned to their village allive, were put by relatives with many many clothes in the farm to get warmed by the hot breath of the animals, in order to die peacefully and painless from cold...

Ochi or Okhi

The transcription of Greek όχι as Oxi is not standard, see Transliteration of Greek to the Latin Alphabet. Oxi would be read as [oksi'] in English and in most other languages, whereas the real pronunciation is [oçi].

Well "Ochi" would mean its pronounced like the "ch" in cheese which is just as bad. I propose "Ohi", its much closer. See below. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 00:18, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Ochi is the transliteration. Although Okhi is better, Ohi is closer to /oxi/. 23:48, 19 February 2017 (UTC)GamerGeekWiki (talk)

about the suggested merge

This article, in its current form, describes the most (but not all) the events around October 28th, 1940. It's a very specific subset of the events of the Italian war, and it deserves its own article. +MATIA ☎ 19:13, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

There are individual article for D Day and VE day. The scale is different, but the impact? Ohi/Ochi day deserves its own because it delayed Hitler's invasion of USSR. Greece was standing completely alone and would have been justified to give in. But it decided to unilaterally respect its alliances and refuse an invasion. The 'no' is academic, what matters it the blunt and immediate rejection of any compromise with the Axis. The same morining (28 October, Greeks poured into the streets, irrespective of political preferences and were shouting 'Ochi'. Hence Churchil's 'from now on we will say that heros fight like Greeks' or something like that. The next year, there was a commemoration of 'Ochi Day' in Greek communities. Politis 15:04, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Single word answer.

The assertion that the Italian ultimatum was answered with the single word "No" is a popular myth. Metaxas, was waken up in the middle of the night. He is quoted as having answered in French, which was the language routinely used by diplomats then: "Alors, c'est la guerre" = "So it's war then" following which he gave back the telegram to Grachi.

What's your source for that? --Stlemur 03:29, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

The political history of modern Greece, by Spiros Markezinis (the book that starts with 1935)

Pronunciation

The standard German pronunciation of /ch/ in "ich" is [ç] (Voiceless palatal fricative). This is what is tought in German courses, and this is exactly how the /χ/ in όχι is pronounced. Different pronunciations, such as [ʃ] (sh as in shoe) are dialect. The scottish "Loch" is a bad example because the pronunciation of /ch/ is [x] (Voiceless velar fricative).   Andreas   ^(T) 20:27, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

This could run and run!

1. The article says that ό is pronounced like oh, well my oh rhymes with toe or pro (and o in how I think Americans pronounce Oprah Winfrey) not the o in top or fox (or how an Englishman pronounces opera) – which is I think the Greek way.
2. And I have heard Greeks pronounce a χ like an h and like a ch in loch or Bach. I am not sure that using only a German example in an English work is a good idea.

Perhaps easier to refer users to (Wiktionary όχι) – and let them bother! — Saltmarsh 07:02, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Why does this page say "dictator" while other pages say "Prime Minister"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.106.75.1 (talk) 01:27, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I just removed the German example. Germans pronounce their 'h' using too much their throat. That's completely different to the greek pronunciation which is similar to English hi, how, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.218.184.47 (talk) 16:08, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Greek Omicron, as well as omega, are an /o/ sound. Greek Chi is an /x/ sound. Greek Iota is pronounced /i/, therefore, it is /oxi/ as well as οχι 23:53, 19 February 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by GamerGeekWiki (talk • contribs)

Ohi

• In that case, it has to be OHI. Politis 11:50, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
• Latin spelling of Greek words has been a recurrent problem in English WP. For the existing standards, see Transliteration of Greek to the Latin alphabet. According to this, only Greeklish has χ -> h. Remember that <χ> is pronounced [x] or [ç] whereas English <h> is pronounced [h]. It would be very desirable to have a uniform tranliteration system for modern Greek at WP (and also for ancient Greek), but it would be hard to get consensus for this. It is important to make redirects from all conceivable spelling variants. See also: Symvoli (check recent history).   Andreas   ^(T) 14:39, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
• I'd just like to say that it is pronounced "Ohi". I'm in a Greek class and this is the way the professor (who was born in Greece and lived there for 30 years) pronounces it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.171.5.128 (talk) 04:04, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
• Happy Ohi Day everyone. Where in the world did they get "Okhi"? I've never even seen it written that way before. "Ohi" is the best choice IMO. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 04:42, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
• Yeah. It is prononced like Oh-Hee. That is even in the description of the article. Where did the random K come from? Greekboy (talk) 18:27, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
• Also state owned broadcaster Ellinikí Radiofonía Tileórasi wrote it as "Ohi" in their news article about the day here: [1]]. Greekboy (talk) 09:53, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
• Okhi Day → Ohi Day — Never seen or heard of the current name in my life, proposal to move to other name was started in mid-2006 and has only seen support in the 2 plus years since. — Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 00:21, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
• "Okhi" is the most accurate transcription of the Greek original 'Οχι. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 07:07, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
• Also, "proposal to move to other name was started in mid-2006 and has only seen support in the 2 plus years since" makes no sense to me. Of course there would be no support shown for such a rename before it was proposed! (WTF?!?) PS: No Jar-jar Binks jokes allowed, okie-day? — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 11:12, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
• "Okhi" is original research since I have never seen it spelled like that in my life. Also English language sources show "Ohi", such as the link from ERT in the discussion and also the Greek-American newspapers, which I don't have a link for right now, but they read "Ohi" as well. What do you mean it was never proposed? Did you read the last section!?!? Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 15:49, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
• Modern Greek χ is usually transcribed "kh". Anthony Appleyard (talk) 23:33, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Where? certainly not on wikipedia. We name things based on the most common English name, which is no doubt "Ohi". Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 14:59, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Note. All further discussion should be in my formal proposal in the section below. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 00:17, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Requested move 2009

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was moved based on sources demonstrating WP:COMMONNAME in WP:ENGLISH. Aervanath (talk) 15:08, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

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I am requesting that "Okhi Day" be moved to "Ohi Day". I have never seen it spelled with a "kh" in my life whether some feel that it is an accurate transliteration or not is not important. We should be using the most common English name according to WP:ENGLISH and that is "Ohi". Greek national tv station ERT referred to it as "Ohi Day" in the English section last October and several major American publications have also used the "h" including Time Magazine/CNN [2] and the Chicago Sun Times [3]. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 00:17, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

• Move in light of sourced info --Killing Vector (talk) 11:25, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

• Comment Can't we do OXI Day with an X? And just to state the obvious, if it isn't already, if the name does get changed, that Greek cities like Chalandri will need to be renamed aswell. _{El Greco}^(talk) 22:15, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

• Well the "x" is greeklish, its not pronounced "oksi", as it would be with an "x", so no. And unless we also have an established English spelling of Chalandri as Halandri, it will probably stay there. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 22:18, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Oh okay. Just asking. _{El Greco}^(talk) 22:35, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

• Support. Ohi seems better to me.--Michael X the White (talk) 07:14, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Page name

"Χ,χ" (chi) (ipa: [ç] in this case, or [x]) is almost always transliterated as ch in the Latin alphabet. This happens since antiquity. Most non-Greek speakers are familiar with the sound that ch represents. Ch instead of h is a clear indication that a word is of Greek origin. In contrast, h represents /h/ which is not consistent with the word όχι. Even more, although h is sometimes used to represent χ, this use is either informal, artistic or due personal choice as in the case of a name. This is also suggested at the article Chi (letter). Finally, ohi is not as common as ochi.

So, I do not think that "Όχι" should be transliterated as "Ohi" in English. Dimboukas (talk) 13:55, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

As you can see, the above proposal to move the page is silly. There are three votes, one of which shows a complete lack of knowledge on the subject. Dimboukas (talk) 14:10, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia uses the guideline WP:ENGLISH which states that the "most common [term] in the English language, as you would find it in reliable sources" should be used. As I listed above, I found that most reliable sources use "Ohi Day" and as such that is the name of the page. There are no votes above, the page was moved based on a rationale and a brief discussion. The moving admin weighed the merits of my argument and agreed. Unless someone agrees with your move in the same way, then it cannot be moved. Grk1011 (talk) 14:13, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

All Greek words and articles in Wikipedia, either Ancient or Modern, wich contain chi are transliterated as ch. h is unscientific and unencyclopedic. And ohi is certainly not the most common term in the English language. Google finds 24,500 results for "Ochi Day" and 16,900 for "Ohi Day". Google Books finds 1,150 and 790 respectively.

Although with a quick search in Encycloædia Britannica I did not find any mentions in either Ochi or Ohi, it refers to Όρος Όχη (pronounced exactly the same) as Ochi Mountain. Dimboukas (talk) 14:38, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

I suggest you start a move proposal at WP:REQMOVE if you wish to move ahead with this. Grk1011 (talk) 15:24, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Requested move 2011

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move, current title does no harm to WP Mike Cline (talk) 03:00, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

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Ohi Day → Ochi Day – Relisted. Vegaswikian (talk) 18:57, 14 December 2011 (UTC) The Greek letter Χ, χ (Chi) (ipa: [x] or [ç]) is always transliterated in English and other languages that use the Latin alphabet as ch. This is consistent historically as this is in practice since antiquity, and phonetically as, for example, ch is pronounced as both [x] and [ç] in German. Ch is an indication that a word is of Greek origin. h, instead, is informal as suggested in the article Chi (letter) and rather unscientific. Ch is exclusively used in other Wikipedia articles with Greek names that have chi and "Ochi Day" has more results in Google and Google Books than "Ohi Day". Dimboukas (talk) 18:01, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

• Support. The choices are "Ohi", "Ochi", and the surprisingly common mis-transliteration "Oxi". Of the three, "Ochi" is both more correct, as per Dimboukas, and more popular by a wide margin, based on Google Books searches. Constantine ✍ 19:38, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

• Support. As mentioned above. Check Romanization of Greek too. Dimboukas (talk) 20:06, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

• Isn't kh more usual in transliterations of modern Greek? —Tamfang (talk) 21:11, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

• I've never seen that used before, but regardless we have to use the most common English spelling. This isn't just writing some random Greek word in the Latin alphabet, it's actually a term that is used in English as the name of the holiday. Grk1011 (talk) 01:59, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

• Support, it's the right transliteration. Macedonian (talk) 06:12, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose. A summary of what I said in the previous move debate, all of which is till valid. We should be using the most common English name according to WP:ENGLISH and that is "Ohi". Greek national tv station ERT referred to it as "Ohi Day" in the English section last October and several major American publications have also used the "h" including Time Magazine/CNN [4] and the Chicago Sun Times [5]. Additionally, a Google News search shows "ochi day" having 29 hits while "ohi day" has 71, so it's not cut and dry. I also like to point out in these discussions that "ch" is always misleading as everyone is taught that c-h makes the sound as seen in "cheese". Grk1011 (talk) 16:25, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose, per reasons listed above. It seems like the most common English spelling by media outlets. Just this past October Reuters [6] and Kathimerini [7] used the spelling "Ohi". If we go even further back, Time Magazine has been using the spelling "Ohi Day" as early as 1981. [8] Greekboy (talk) 23:48, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose: WP:EN#Divided usage in English-language sources states that when usage is divided, the rule of least surprise should prevail over Google hits. As most of readers aren't aware of correct transliteration of Greek, the least surprising name is "Ohi". — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 21:11, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

• Comment -- The problem is that the Greek letter chi is a soft "ch" as in the Scottihs loch, not a hard "ch" as in church. The result is that the Greeks themselves in transliterating modern Greek names inot Roman script frequenetly use "h" rather than "ch". I would wish to see this voted on by those familiar with the modern Greek language. Peterkingiron (talk) 14:43, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

• Comment: That is one of the reasons I support the "Ohi" spelling over "Ochi". Most native English-speakers are taught that "ch" makes a hard sound (Voiceless palato-alveolar affricate) like in "church" or "cheese". The soft pronunciation of "ch" (Voiceless velar fricative) like in "Loch", only occurs in very few dialects of the modern English language, most notably in Scottish English. Thus when a spelling like "Ochi" comes up, most native speaker would see it as "O-ch-i" with a hard "ch", which is very wrong. It comes down to a usage issue, not "proper transliteration". Greekboy (talk) 17:33, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

• Comment: I do not think this is the case. First of all, the English language has plenty of Greek words which are all written with ch. The English speaker never pronounces this ch as in cheese. Writing the word with ch is consistent with the modern Romanization of Greek. H, although not as bad as x—which is comparably common—, is misleading and unscientfic. And do not be sure about how ERT writes the word. ERT is notorious for its spelling mistakes! Dimboukas (talk) 17:50, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

• Comment: The "ch" is almost always pronounced as a Voiceless palato-alveolar affricate (hard "ch") by the common English speaker. The Voiceless velar fricative (soft "ch") is simply not commonly taught. It is not common in most dialects. Actually as the English phonology article suggests, many dialects us a /k/ in place of a soft "ch". So if anything, a closer transliteration to the Greek /χ/ that would be better comprehend by the average English speaker would be "kh", but that is neither widely used nor practical for this article. Your logic that the average English speaker would read the title correctly with a soft "ch", is based on the assumption that the reader would be familiar with the modern romanization of Greek or has heard the word spoken before. That is not very practical if you ask me. Greekboy (talk) 19:04, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

• Support per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Greek)#Modern (Demotic) Greek and ISO 843, see Romanization of Greek. We need some consistency within Wikpedia (although there are many other pages that do not conform to the standard). If you want to keep the currents spelling, the Naming Convnetions should be changed first, so put your comments there.  Andreas  ^(T) 18:32, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Actually, the policy You've linked states otherwise: "If there is a common anglicization of a Greek proper name, it should be used in an English language context". — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 21:21, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

• Undecided. Here are my 2 reasons. No, because irrespective of transliteration the pronunciation 'ohi' is closer to the Greek Όχι than 'ochi' which can be read as 'otchi'. Yes because other languages like German spell it 'Ochi' and this provides consistency. However there are also languages which simple translate it, i.e. French is 'Jour du Non', but I am totally against that option. Politis (talk) 14:29, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.