Talk:Civilian casualties and displacements during the Cyprus conflict

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Untitled

The archives of this Talk page can be found at archive 1

Creation of the article

Hello everybody - I just created this article, in order to resolve the dispute about the "Turkish Cypriot Genocide", which now is a redirect to this article. Your discussions about the genocide article are not lost, but in the Talk archive. - Snchduer 18:50, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I tried to give this article some basic structure, separating casualties and displacements by ethnicities, so we do not get mixed up here. Also, I wanted to separate the whole thing into two general time periods: 1963-1974 for intercommunal violence, and 1974/5 for casualties and displacements caused directly or indirectly by the Turkish invasion/intervention. - Snchduer 18:50, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There are of course a lot of issues that need to be addressed; For once, there are only Turkish Cypriot casualties and displacements as of now, which certainly needs to be mended. Secondly, there might be quarrels about some wordings. For instance, I used the word "invasion" as the landing of the Turkish army was unilateral and did in fact not result in the restitution of the 1960 constitution. - Snchduer 18:50, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Copy-Paste Editing

Dear Argy, refrain from using copy-paste-editing to overwrite this article. There is a certain sense in this structure, but your edits are firstly quite POV and secondly unstructured. If you want to include GC casualties and displacements, do so in the appropriate section, but maintaining a neutral tone. - Snchduer 00:13, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

TC casualties in 1974

hi Expatkiwi (or other ppl who have sources),

can you please shorten the TC 1974 section dramatically? I do not see the benefit having a list of names here; state places, and numbers instead. - Snchduer 19:06, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Indeed, yes, please shorten. --Chiacomo (talk) 19:18, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Did it myself in the end; added the numbers in the appropriate places (counting the lines Expatkiwi inserted with names), but they might still not be correct. Again, I removed it because I did not see the point in having lists with names and numbers on this site. - Snchduer 19:48, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I put the names in because seeing names hits it home about the people who were killed. Expatkiwi 21:26, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yep, but imagine the GCs also want to put their 5000 names... this will make the page quite unreadable... I favour your solution of putting it on extra pages. If this is deemed not fit for a wikipedia article (as I would suspect it might be), don't get angry, but provide the proper links to the TRNC page (I suspect you got it from there?). - Snchduer 23:17, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Expatkiwi, as I told you in erenkoy 's talk page, Wikipedia is about delivering facts, not "hitting" anything "home" (a.k.a. Create impressions or feelings).--Jsone 09:04, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There is no evidence or document about the Greek casualties from a neutral and respectible source

There is no evidence or document about the Greek cassualties from a respectible or neutral official source , please write there where did you found the information about "5000" Greek Cypriots killed or massacred if that thing is happened. On the other hand there is no neutral source about the casualties of the Greeks , and there is no evidence that Greeks were massacred too. And there is no proof or evidence about the TMT activities against the Turks (?!?) This is funny too , I don't think that TMT killed Leftist Turks. PLEASE SHOW REFERENCES. aozan—Preceding undated comment added at 11:14, 28 June 2005 (UTC)[reply]

About the GC casualties, I am afraid I have to concur. Even on the Cyprus PIO page there is only a mentioning of "missed persons", not of dead ones. I supposed that missing=dead, but that seems a bit strange, due to the fact that a) probably quite some people are known to be dead, and that b) I would assume the number to be a bit higher. - Think Different 28 June 2005 14:06 (UTC)

About the TMT activities against the Turks... it seems very likely to me that they did actually do this (as did the EOKA as well), and I do remember hearing about this happening (not only on wikipedia). Here is sth from a pro-Greek website (so I guess): [1] and also Examples of the Turkish-Cypriot democrats, opposing the idea of partitioning Cyprus, information about the staging of the intercommunal conflict in Cyprus through the underground organisation "TMT" and its provocations, the attacks and the murder against the Cumhuriyet newspaper and its owners, which defended the Republic of Cyprus as a compromise formula are given for the first time to the reader with documents. [2] - Think Different 28 June 2005 14:06 (UTC)

And another (possibly a bit off-topic in general, but in this aspect not too bad): However, the TMT did not target only Greeks but also some Turkish workers who were in favour of peace and independence of the island. After a joint mass demonstration by Greek and Turkish Cypriots, the TMT began murdering Turkish trade union members. [3] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Snchduer (talk • contribs) 14:16, 28 June 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Greek Cypriots like to exagarate the nature (if not the number) of their deads. The 5000 deaths they keep on talking about was mostly (I am not saying wholely as in the case of every war there are always collateral damage) armed paramilitary and military people that had tried to stand againts Turkish operation by fighting. If we are going to write about the deaths of war as casualty then we should also start wrting the death of Turkish army during the war which is also in 4 digits.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.219.216.242 (talk) 01:15, 5 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The fact is there has never been masacre perfomed by Turkish army or Turkish Cypriots in the scale of attorcities performed by Greek Cypriots like wiping out the whole villages and burrying them in the mass graves. If there were Greek Cypriots would have made it visible by now. As i have said most of their casualties are armed military dead unlike Turkish Cypriots.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.219.216.242 (talk) 01:20, 5 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I hit rollback by accident. I restored the material. My apologies for the oversight. El_C 01:41, 5 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't it wonderful how people are determined to believe their own lies. Here is an editorial report by the Sunday Times on 23 January 1977, written by the newspaper's Insight team on the findings of the European Commission of Human Rights (Cyprus v. Turkey, 1st Interstate Application)

"Killing Evidence given to the commission: Witness Mrs K said that on July 21, 1974, the second day of the Turkish invasion, she and a group of villagers from Elia were captured when, fleeing from bombardment, they tried to reach a range of mountains. All 12 men arrested were civilians. They were separated from the women and shot in front of the women, under the orders of a Turkish officer. Some of the men were holding children, three of whom were wounded.

Written statements referred to two more group killings: at Trimithi eyewitnesses told of the deaths of five men (two shepherds aged 60 and 70, two masons of 20 and 60, and a 19-year-old plumber). At Palekythron 30 Greek Cypriot soldiers being held prisoner were killed by their captors, according to the second statement.

Witness S gave evidence of two other mass killings at Palekythron. In each case, between 30 and 40 soldiers who had surrendered to the advancing Turks were shot. In the second case, the witness said, "the soldiers were transferred to the kilns of the village where they were shot dead and burnt in order not to leave details of what had happened."

Seventeen members of two neighbouring families, including 10 women and five children aged between two and nine were murdered in cold blood at Palekythron, reported witness H, a doctor. Further killing described in the doctor's notes, recording evidence related to him by patients (either eye-witnesses or victims) included:

   * Execution of eight civilians taken prisoner by Turkish soldiers in the area of Prastio, one day after the ceasefire on August 16, 1974.
   * Killing by Turkish soldiers of five unarmed Greek Cypriot soldiers who had sought refuge in a house at Voni.
   * Shooting of four women, one of whom survived by pretending she was dead.

Further evidence, taken in refugees camps and in the form of written statements, described killings of civilians in homes, streets or fields, as well as the killing of people under arrest or in detention. Eight statements described the killing of soldiers not in combat; five statements referred to a mass grave found in Dherynia.

Commission's verdict: By 14 votes to one, the commission considered there were "very strong indications" of violation of Article 2 and killings "committed on a substantial scale."

If you want to read the article, you can find it at http://www.lobbyforcyprus.org/press/press1998-1940/suntimes230177.htm Larisv 20:33, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Anon Edits

Some anonymous user tried to revert the article to the form it had before when it was listed under "Turkish Cypriot Genocide" (cf changes here: [4] and the anon's reverts [5], [6]). I reverted his version, and I invite the user to sign in with a proper user name and discuss what he wants changed. - Think Different 30 June 2005 09:44 (UTC)

TURKISH PROPAGANDA

Why don't you ever stop lying?You claim that turkish cypriots suffeed more during the invasion when women where raped and men killed.Then what can we say about the Greek cypriots.Weren't treated like animals from the "peace-keeping" army of your motherland?The turkish army has killed much more civilians than the greek-cypriot armed forces.The turkish cypriot fled to the north because they wanted to be in the turkish-controled teritories.The attacks on villages were made mostly by fanatics of EOKA B that wanted revenge for the turkish invasion.Also we must not foeget that in the first days of the invasion almost every turkish village created its own small military force that became a danger for nearby greek villages.In the larger cities like Famagusta and Limasol the turkish-cypriots formed armed forces consisting of 1000 armed civilians that required the respone from the Greek-cypriot army.Summarising the effect by the turkish invasion is much more greater on the greek-cypriots rather the turkish-cypriots; as mush more were killed,injured,raped and forced to leave their homes by the turkish 'peace-force'.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.4.136.99 (talk) 14:10, 27 December 2005 (UTC)—Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.4.136.200 (talk) 21:06, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Although quite willing to accept your version, please can you provide more evidence than the rather vague assertions above. All the books I have read on the subject note the number of civilian casulties among Turks prior to 1974, and the plans to remove Turks from power shareing under the Aktsis plan. I think it is generally accepted that ethnic cleansing took place after the invasion in the North. But to demonise one side is not the route to finding a peaceful solution. Sol—Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.71.50.41 (talk) 13:00, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Numbers of dead

Hello everybody - I'd like to make some strong suggestions for this article - as a Cypriot.

I don't understand where the claim for 120000 Turkish-Cypriot deaths in the 1963-1974 era comes from. This is impossible, since the Turkish population in Cyprus (~85000 in 1960) actually grew substantially (~120000 in 1974) during these years. Evidence from a few books in my possession suggests that Turkish-Cypriot casualties where 500-700 people, while 300-400 Greek-Cypriots lost their lives.

As I'm not a specialist in modern Cyprus history, I'll refrain from editing this article. However I must urge the current editors to either research the topic properly and post the real numbers, or to remove the article altogether.

Another correction: the incident in old Nicosia that prompted the bi-communal violence resulted in the death of 1 Greek-Cypriot, along with those of 2 Turkish-Cypriots that are already mentioned. --Respiridus 16:04, 8 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Major Changes

Since noone has responded to my previous comment, I took the liberty of making a major rewrite of this article, giving the correct numbers of dead, missing, and misplaced persons, with citations to reports by international organizations. I also removed some irrelevant and biased comments.

If someone disagrees with these numbers and facts, feel free to change them, but please offer similar citations. And please keep your head cool and don't try to revert/change the article on the basis of national prejudice.--Respiridus 15:23, 9 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I generally agree with your edits, but why is there no reference to the Turkish Cypriot mass graves? This is crucial for the 74 period. --A.Garnet 15:41, 9 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, what I tried to do was to keep things simple and balanced, just offer the major events and the exact numbers of the victims. So, I took the liberty to remove (and/or not add) minor events of violence, places where mass murders took place, places where mass graves can be found, etc.

Agreed, it would be better if we had these things listed, but only if we could list them accurately and exhaustively for obvious reasons. Given the fact that there is much controversy over them, and no reliable sources (that I know of) that list them all, I simply can't see how this can be done.

For example, let's take mass graves: There are a few of Greek Cypriots in the south, and a few of Turkish Cypriots in the north that most people know of. However, most mass graves of Greek Cypriots are in the north, and most of Turkish Cypriots are in the south. For example, Lysi (GCs) and Kofinou (TCs). Their existence, and the events that led to their existence, are hotly disputed between the two sides, so what do we do?--Respiridus 15:39, 13 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes we have to stay fair and balanced, but not at the expense of excluding major events. I dont think anyone is disputing that large numbers of TC's from Tokhni, Aloa, Maratha and Sandallaris were rounded up, shot and buried by EOKA-B. If i'm not mistaken the numbers were around 180+ , which is almost as large as the entire 63-64 TC casualty rate. So this cannot be dismissed by any means. --A.Garnet 17:27, 13 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know much about these. I do know about Lysi (70+ Greek Cypriots executed), Varosi (14 Greek Cypriots), Dhavlos (2 Greek Cypriots) and Kofinou (14 Turkish Cypriots), though. However, I can't find any independent references on the net about these.

Perhaps we could add something like this: Although some of the casualties reported here represent collateral damage, mass executions and burrials did take place in 1974, mostly by TMT in the north and EOKA B in the south.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Respiridus (talk • contribs) 15:24, 15 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

References

Given the controversy of this issue, I think it would be best to avoid placing anything here (especially events and numbers of victims), without references to independent sources. By "independent" I mean international organizations, third-party publications, etc. (sites from Greece, Turkey, and Cyprus don't count).

What do you think?—Preceding unsigned comment added by Respiridus (talk • contribs) 14:16, 13 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Merging

I'm against merging of this article with the Cypriot refugee article cause the Civilian casualties and displacements during the Cyprus conflict article is more general than the other one. The Cypriot refugee article can be added to this article as a separate section. E104421 12:51, 29 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

pov problems

Turkish Cypriot Withdrawal from the Government - Some say withdrawal, some say forced withdrawal, this article is pushing the former.
the Turkish Cypriot leaders showed absolutely no interest in negotiating - according to whom?
Thus they abandoned the parliament and all other institutions, beating the drum and accusing the other side that "they have thrown us out of the republic" (to this day, the seats reserved for the Turks are still empty in the Assembly of Republic of Cyprus). - abandoned? beating the drum?
The Turkish Army conducted a policy of ethnic cleansing consisting of wholesale attacks and massacres of the Greek population of the territories that came under Turkish military population in an attempt to terrorise the Greek population into evacuating these areas. The wholesale massacres carried by the Turkish army and Turkish Cypriot paramilitary groups against the Greeks of Cyprus[citation needed] spawned a limited number of similar attacks against Turkish civilians in the south by small groups - one is "wholesale attacks and massacres...in an attempt to terrorise the Greek population" while the other is "a limited number of similar attacks...by small groups".

Article tagged for the time being. --A.Garnet 18:38, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The POV problems at time being, in 2015 that is, are not as the totally pro-Turkish user, as it shows from his history, before me is saying but the exact opposite.

"" Only Greek Cypriot war crimes in terms of massacres are stated in the article and not a single Turkish Cypriot or a Turkish one, something that is a total pro-Turkish POV.
"" The policy of ethnic cleansing was not 50-50 and was not conducted equally by both sides, as the pro-Turkish POV article is saying. Only the Turkish army conducted a total policy of ethnic cleansing. Every other move came mainly after a deal.Ron1978 (talk) 18:59, 16 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Completely Biased Propaganda

I like the fact that you guys decided to basically make it look like the Turks invaded for no particular reason and that they for no particular reason slaughtered everyone and ethnically cleansed everyone. This is all bull-crap and you yourselves know it. I don't know how you people sleep at night knowing that you only counted the Greek Cypriots that died and barely mentioned any Turkish Cypriots that were the ones that were REALLY ethnically cleansed. I'm not going to even bother changing this article, I know it will just be reverted again by propagandists, it's just sad that you guys pollute wikipedia like this. Arsenic99 19:40, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Suggested changes

The article is very POV, there are a few obvious chnages I would like to make unless anyone disagrees 1) Most of the amendments were aimed at fairly balancing out the political rights of both Cypriot communities, based on their proportion of the island's population

Most of the amendments were aimed at rebalancing political power within the Cyprus House of Representatives, based on their proportion of the island's population —Preceding unsigned comment added by GreenwichSol (talk • contribs) 16:38, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

removing POV tag with no active discussion per Template:POV

I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:

This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. Remove this template whenever:

There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved
It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given
In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant.

Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 22:24, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Removing the content from "Civilian casualties and displacements during the Cyprus conflict"

Dr. K., you removed the following content from the above entitled WP:
On 13 October 2014, United States Federal Court ruled that "..Greek Cypriots cannot claim that the government in control of Northern Cyprus gave their homes to Turkish Cypriots....Although the United States does not recognize it as a state, the TRNC purportedly operates as a democratic republic with a president, prime minister, legislature and judiciary...TRNC is not vulnerable to a lawsuit in Washington".^[1]
with the edit summary: "Undue weight. No consensus. revert spamming across multiple articles by edit-warring Northern Cyprus-promoting SPA"
1. Which part of the edit you attach undue weight?
2. Is USA FC decision related with Northern Cyprus not related with Northern Cyprus according to you?
3. If so, what is it related with? Notice you removed it from "Legal Challanges.."
4. Is USA FC decision is not a legal action according to you?
Alexyflemming (talk) 21:39, 14 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ courthousenews Courthouse News Service

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May as well be renamed: "Civilian casualties and displacements caused by the aggressive Turkish Cypriots and the Turkish Invasion of Cyprus"... this article is clearly nothing but pure and blatant POV pushing

Why is an article named "Civilian casualties and displacements during the Cyprus conflict" concentrating mostly on events from/after 1974? Why are the events of Bloody Christmas/Kanlı Noel 1963 and what ensued being sidelined in favour of pushing a strong anti-Turkish intervention/invasion rhetoric? This entire article is pure and blatant POV pushing. It is following the Greek Cypriot official discourse on the conflict, which as reflected in its history textbooks has a strongly denialist approach to the events of Bloody Christmas 1963 etc, and which has the effect of contributing to a Greek Cypriot master narrative that the Cyprus problem started in 1974 with the Turkish invasion, and where Greek Cypriots are presented as the victims of Turkish Cypriot aggression, whereas the majority of the victims were Turkish Cypriot, both in terms of civilian casualties and displacements, as well as by any other calculable measure. By harbouring and pushing this narrative this article has the effect of clearly and blatantly pushing a pro-Greek Cypriot & anti-Turkish Cypriot POV on this issue. It is biased and manipulative beyond belief. This needs to change. Nargothronde (talk) 03:06, 7 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

And further on this problem: this type of strong pro-Greek Cypriot POV pushing and anti-Turkish Cypriot POV pushing really needs to be stopped.

Like with how the Greek Cypriots are guilty of attempted genocide but no action has ever been taken against them, and instead they have been rewarded by recognition as the government of all Cyprus, these types of strong pro-Greek Cypriot POV pushers and strong anti-Turkish Cypriot POV pushers are exploiting that political expediency to make baseless assertions and spoil Wikipedia, with assertions comparable to those made by Mr. Christides (May 10, 1999), that "there was no ethnic cleansing or attempted genocide of Turkish Cypriots by Greek Cypriots", or Mr. Papadopoulos (2004), that "no Turkish Cypriots were killed between 1963 and 1974".

Until these people come to terms with the appalling behaviour of the Greek Cypriot community toward the Turkish Cypriot community and stop trying to persuade themselves and the world that each side was as much to blame as the other, there will be no reconciliation in Cyprus. And so long as there are so many strong pro-Greek Cypriot POV pushers and strong anti-Turkish Cypriot POV pushers, Wikipedia will continue to be riddled with selective disinformation on this issue.

This needs to be stopped right now. Nargothronde (talk) 03:06, 7 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Nargothronde: Bloody Christmas is covered under the linked article Cypriot intercommunal violence and Bloody Christmas (1963) is linked from there. It's possible a merge would help give more context for the effects on civilians. Your proposed article title does not appear to reflect the contents of the article in a neutral fashion. I cannot find the quotes you are objecting to in the article. If there are specific changes you would like to see in the article, or if you could point to specific sources to support proposed changes, that would be helpful. -- Beland (talk) 18:17, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think it does "reflect the contents of the article in a neutral fashion".

I am really not sure how anyone can, in good faith, argue that "oh, this isn't the right article for mentioning e.g. Bloody Christmas" when the article also tries to provide an inappropriately limited amount of context through the "1963–64: Cypriot intercommunal violence" section. By reading the article, I only get the impression that the only bad thing "the Greek Cypriot" side did was the Tochni massacre. It can't just be like that, can it?

At least hyperlink some major events that are too long and nuanced to mention in this specific article, I can't believe how one cannot possibly think how Bloody Christmas, being the most prominent omission, is not even worthy of the "See also" section. 2A00:8A60:C000:1:A717:6E8B:638C:44A9 (talk) 11:40, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The events of Bloody Christmas do appear to be mentioned in this article, so as requested I've added a link directly to Bloody Christmas (1963). If you have other changes you feel would improve the article, feel free to make them or propose specifics, citing reliable sources. Thanks! -- Beland (talk) 19:43, 18 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[1] urthousenews Courthouse News Service

[1]